IRA worship

[revol68]

..... nor me mate really, but it's sort of aspirational and a nice idea isn't it? If you read about Cyprus being peacfully reunited you'd go 'aaahhh, great, bless' and feel a bit of a warm glow.


I have a sneaky feeling it stirs higher passions in some, though.

no i wouldn't, i'd sit and stew bitterly in rage at the cross class nationalist platitudes being offered up.


Hippy!

 

[foggypane]

look, dude, i ain't cut my hair since march but that don't make me a hippy!

 

[Pickman's model]

look, dude, i ain't cut my hair since march but that don't make me a hippy!

it doesn't?

 

[Pickman's model]

The Elizabethan Protestant settlers "ethical cleansed" in the true sense of the word the native Catholic Irish.

could you expand on this novel concept of 'ethical cleansing'?

it sounds interesting!

 

[foggypane]

it doesn't?

No. It could simply mean I'm hoping to start a metal band.

I could call them the IRA Worshippers!

 

[Dilzybhoy]

Foggy Pain and the IRA Worshipers.
That's got a ring to it.

 

[cemertyone]

If middle class catholics had reached out to the protestant wc 35 odd years ago and converted them all to socialism instead of widening sectarian divisions with their vile agenda, this tragedy would never have occurred.

Fuck me that... really takes the biscuit our kid...So its all the fault of the Catholics for not " extending the hand of friendship" to the very same people who where responsible for ensuring that we ( as catholics) where never able to have the same legitmacey of citzenship as others.....
you are either very young and stupid or as i suspect have very little or no understanding of the events and political landscape of the last 25 years...
As for " vile agenda`s" i believe it was your ( british political representitives ) that refused to counter the vile agenda of protestant supremecy and domination that lead us into this situation........
now fuck of back to the Army staff college...oh... and do some reading on your subjects when you come to post here.... your ignorance is truely stiffiling...and you sound like some 12 year old....

 

[cemertyone]

whats so fucking noble about uniting Ireland? I couldn't give to fucks about it either way.

The word TWO is spelt with a W........which is reason enough to believe that you DID not have a Catholic education.... didn`t you go to Garentar if you lived so close to Larne etc????

 

[fishfingerer]

Fuck me that... really takes the biscuit our kid...So its all the fault of the Catholics for not " extending the hand of friendship" to the very same people who where responsible for ensuring that we ( as catholics) where never able to have the same legitmacey of citzenship as others.....
you are either very young and stupid or as i suspect have very little or no understanding of the events and political landscape of the last 25 years...
As for " vile agenda`s" i believe it was your ( british political representitives ) that refused to counter the vile agenda of protestant supremecy and domination that lead us into this situation........
now fuck of back to the Army staff college...oh... and do some reading on your subjects when you come to post here.... your ignorance is truely stiffiling...and you sound like some 12 year old....

I believe your comments should be directed towards this chap.

my question is hw could it have ever been anything esle?

how could a struggle based upon a nationalist discourse ever do anything more, especially when it's nationalism alienated it from over 50% of the population by default. The civil rights movement was unable to reach out the protestant working class in any major way because of it's generally middle class aspirations and those within it who had socialist politics had already sacrficed them to a histography that placed the end of partition above all else.

 

[gilhyle]

Back to an earlier point

They were a seperate organisation later but they merged for when the republic was declared also Connolly was on the IRB war councill.

James Connolly was coopted onto the Military Committee. I'm not aware that anyone has claimed he joind the IRB.

The ICA and the IV operated under a theoretical single command in 1916, but in practice, with the ICA mostly as separate units in Stephens Green and Dublin Castle/City Hall. In one case, some 50 ICA men and 70 IVs operated under a single command structure - and occupied the GPO, under the direct command of Connolly. Thus, in practice, IV men operated under ICA command, but ICA men did not operate under IV command.

James O'Neill became commandant of the ICA after 1916 and advocated a policy of independence from the IV. The minority faction, led by Frank Robbins, advocated retaining the ICA as a separate organistion, but proposed placing ICA volunteers under IV command. This approach was not accepted. In the debates the Robbins faction often portrayed Connolly as having believed in a single command.

The ICA subsequently disbanded, but I can't remember when . Think it might be in Fox's (unreliable) history, which I don't have. I think it was 1923.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

James Connolly was coopted onto the Military Committee. I'm not aware that anyone has claimed he joind the IRB.

Didn't have to be. He was head and shoulders above them all militarily and politically and they knew it. Truth be known they were lucky to have him there

 

[gilhyle]

Didn't have to be. He was head and shoulders above them all militarily and politically and they knew it. Truth be known they were lucky to have him there

Don't understand your point. Militarily, Connolly and Plunket were the only two with any half decent strategic ideas.

The point had to do with whether/how the ICA was linked to/merged into/kept separate from the IV and the IRB.

 

[durruti02]

This kind of hypothetical thinking is no use. The northern working class adopted nationalism and loyalism. They did so for reasons, some material, some sentimental, some based on deception. So these same people, in some hypthetical world you imagine, without changing, are so totally different that they solve all the problems of sectarianism.....sorry, wish it was true, but it makes no sense.

Its like saying what would I be like if someone else was my father

you are right .. hypothetical thinking will not change the disaster that has been 1970's 'irish nationalism' .. however if you do not try to understand WHY things happen in history .. we are condemed to repeat those mistakes ..yes?

we have to understand who is doing the deceptions and why people follow them

the ira worshippers live in a one dimensional world where things just happen .. where it only seems right that they followed their 'historic destiny' to avenge the wrongs of protestantism ( even though the early republicans were protestant) and the plantations and cromwell .. and where they have sufferred 30 years of death and blood shed for nothing ...

i guess i would be TOO much of a head fuck to see the role that the irish middle classes and the southern cheer leaders and the plastics and the yanks playing in creating the situation where the northern w/c felt they had no option but to follow the PIRA

 

[N_igma]

the ira worshippers live in a one dimensional world where things just happen .. where it only seems right that they followed their 'historic destiny' to avenge the wrongs of protestantism ( even though the early republicans were protestant) and the plantations and cromwell .. and where they have sufferred 30 years of death and blood shed for nothing ...

Yes and here's where you show that you are an idiot. The IRA's war is not against Protestantism, the biggest misconception of politics here.

 

[Dilzybhoy]

you are right .. hypothetical thinking will not change the disaster that has been 1970's 'irish nationalism' ..

"irish nationalism" as apposed to British Imperialism or unionism?

however if you do not try to understand WHY things happen in history .. we are condemned to repeat those mistakes ..yes?

Yes

we have to understand who is doing the deceptions and why people follow them

Indeed.

( even though the early republicans were protestant)

What, all of them???

i guess i would be TOO much of a head fuck to see the role that the irish middle classes and the southern cheer leaders and the plastics and the yanks playing in creating the situation where the northern w/c felt they had no option but to follow the PIRA

Have another guess.

 

[CWalken]

"And it was a war forced upon them, not the other way around"

how true is this though DC?? .. it is clear that the civil rights movement was a far greater threat to Unionism (and the british state) than the P/IRA ever became .. and it was consequently attacked from all sides .. from the RUC/ from street burnings .. till it was so bad the british state intervened as it was an international embarressmnet ..

The war was essentially forced upon the RM. Look at any decent history of the war, (I'd recommend A Secret History of the IRA) the IRA had moved towards a less violent stance by 69.

The PIRA had more to do with old Catholic "Defenderism" than Republicanism - that helps to explain so well why the majority of SF and the IRA didn't revolt against the peace process.

A lot of the people who later joined Republican armies had started out in the Civil Rights Movement. That includes Gerry Adams, Francis Hughes, Dominic McGlinchey and others. I've also personally known people who were involved with stewarding civil rights marches who were Republicans.

but what needs to be asked is how much did the all ireland catholic middle classes/establishment push / support the movement to the armed struggle when this just gave the northen working classes another 25 years of pain

You're far off the mark if you believe there was a conspiracy amongst the Irish middle class to create the IRA. All evidence points to the contrary. The middle class, most especially the church and middle class Irish nationalists were attempting to have the barricades taken down and for normality to resume. It was a section of the working class in the six who wouldn't go back to being treated like second class citizenst that the IRA was spawned from.

to the IRA supportters .. do you think without the P/IRA campaign the northern w/c would be better or worse of today??

Did resistance to Franco leave Spain better or worse off, Durruti?

 

[Dilzybhoy]

Welcome to the boards Cwalk and gilhl.
Your wasting your time with that "durit" fella btw.

 

[durruti02]

Yes and here's where you show that you are an idiot. The IRA's war is not against Protestantism, the biggest misconception of politics here.

jesus did you read ANYTHING of what i said??????????????

 

[durruti02]

"irish nationalism" as apposed to British Imperialism or unionism?


Yes


Indeed.



What, all of them???

Have another guess.

er how many fkn times do people have to say this thread is about the pira NOT imperialism which is OF COURSE THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!! the issue here is DID the pira deal with imperialism .. and the answer is NO it fkn didn't and it left thousends of good people dead in its wake ( no pun intended!)

 

[durruti02]

The war was essentially forced upon the RM. Look at any decent history of the war, (I'd recommend A Secret History of the IRA) the IRA had moved towards a less violent stance by 69.

The PIRA had more to do with old Catholic "Defenderism" than Republicanism - that helps to explain so well why the majority of SF and the IRA didn't revolt against the peace process.

A lot of the people who later joined Republican armies had started out in the Civil Rights Movement. That includes Gerry Adams, Francis Hughes, Dominic McGlinchey and others. I've also personally known people who were involved with stewarding civil rights marches who were Republicans.



You're far off the mark if you believe there was a conspiracy amongst the Irish middle class to create the IRA. All evidence points to the contrary. The middle class, most especially the church and middle class Irish nationalists were attempting to have the barricades taken down and for normality to resume. It was a section of the working class in the six who wouldn't go back to being treated like second class citizenst that the IRA was spawned from.



Did resistance to Franco leave Spain better or worse off, Durruti?

look you clearly know what i am talking about here .. but follow the sad old RM line .. you know there was NO WAR forced on the RM .. (what ever that is .. is it all the northern w/c or what??) ... however bad the pogrom .. and it was bad the tactics of the PIRA were a disaster ... you know as well as i do that the british state was forced into sending in troops to stop the pogrom ..

look the civil rights movement was not nationalist and had within that a potential to fundamentally change things .. not only orangism was threatened by this but the irish middle class was too .. it is not just from macann that it was shown that the response to the repression of the civil rights movemnet was expolited by many of the irish middle class/church etc to push the w/c struggle back into the sterile stagnant dead end of nationalism ..

so no the irish m/c did not CREATE the pira .. but the created the politics within which the w/c felt that was the only option .. and then cheer leaded it .. from the comfort of the south .. it is within that framework that yes some w/c saw their only outlet as in armed struggle .. to many a continuation of the old struggles ... and once an armed struggle/war is created people rarely have little choice as to which side they are on ..

and no one has yet answered the q. if the irish middle classes were not supporting the ra where were all the guns and money coming from??

and whats this about resistance to franco??? strange comment!! spain is a fundamentally differrent thing .. it bares no relation to ireland!! there was a general uprising combined with a social revolution which without the outside support for franco , would have been successfull ..

and so a question to you .. if the PIRA tactics were soo good why do we not use them here??

 

[durruti02]

Welcome to the boards Cwalk and gilhl.
Your wasting your time with that "durit" fella btw.

i said oh ray up the ra i said oh ray up the ra

but what did they do young man???? absolutely failed thats what!! it may be a laugh chanting up the ra at some daft huns but it has failed the irish and failed all of us .. nationalism is a total dead end and if NI doesn't show that to you than you are blind

 

[cemertyone]

er how many fkn times do people have to say this thread is about the pira NOT imperialism which is OF COURSE THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!! the issue here is DID the pira deal with imperialism .. and the answer is NO it fkn didn't and it left thousends of good people dead in its wake ( no pun intended!)

Oh sorry...i didn`t realise that the republican movement where responsible for the deaths of every individual during the course of the last 25 years.....but it would appear your trying to re-write history...l.

 

[cemertyone]

Oh really tell that to the people of Eastern Europe...nationalism has been THEE biggest political movement over the last ten years....has it not????

 

[durruti02]

Oh sorry...i didn`t realise that the republican movement where responsible for the deaths of every individual during the course of the last 25 years.....but it would appear your trying to re-write history...l.

ok straight q. .. would all the thousends who died in 'the troubles' have died if there had been no pira campaign? no they wouldn't .. in fact there is as much chance that without that campign ireland wold be united .. and we might even have a united w/c .. something that is probably now impossible fior many decades

look i absolutely regard the ira as a legititmate w/c organisation .. that is not at issue nor is the fact, historically, of british imperialism, or of the role of orangism and loyalism .. what is at issue is what works.. and as the thread title asks, why would any one worship a failed org. ..

and nationalism ..whether in africa or s.e. asia or ireland has been shown to have failed the w/c .. and especially so in NI .. the form of struggle as armed struggle was chosen not just because of the circumstances but becuase it fitted in to the previous failed methods .. the border campign etc ..

 

[durruti02]

Oh really tell that to the people of Eastern Europe...nationalism has been THEE biggest political movement over the last ten years....has it not????

oh fantastic .. ethnic cleansing and anti roma pogroms and all!!!! hey lets kick out all the scots from ulster and while we're at it lets have those damned vikings ut of dublin too!

 

[revol68]

to cemeterytone, National Socialism was pretty fucking big in the 30's aswell and had often strong roots in the WC doesn't exclude it from being a pile of reactionary anti working class shit rehashing nationalist narratives of a once great nation torn asunder by foreign cosmopolitans who have usurped it's manifest destiny.

Shit was I talking about Irish republicanism or German National Socialism?

 

[sihhi]

to cemeterytone, National Socialism was pretty fucking big in the 30's aswell and had often strong roots in the WC doesn't exclude it from being a pile of reactionary anti working class shit rehashing nationalist narratives of a once great nation torn asunder by foreign cosmopolitans who have usurped it's manifest destiny.

Shit was I talking about Irish republicanism or German National Socialism?

Do you think drawing a parallel between Nazism and Irish Republicanism is useful?

 

[cats hammers]

Do you think drawing a parallel between Nazism and Irish Republicanism is useful?

It's about as useful as drawing a parallel between Irish Republicanism and anything vaguely progressive.

 

[durruti02]

Do you think drawing a parallel between Nazism and Irish Republicanism is useful?

siihi i think our swearing friend revo was refering to cemetarys comments about nationalism being big in eastern europe now, as a justification for nationalism generally

 

[revol68]

Do you think drawing a parallel between Nazism and Irish Republicanism is useful?

well useful in that it shows that the working class often produces and assimilates discourses that are extremely damaging to itself and therefore any attempts to justify said discourses by pointing to it's widespread appeal is about as useless.