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International Women's Day

Vintage Paw said:
What fuels the problems that men face in the world?

Is it women in power?

Is it matriarchy?

omg, wait, no! It's patriarchy! It's a system that pushes certain gender norms that say men should be X and women should be Y. Overwhelmingly, those rules benefit the people who traditionally hold power: white, rich, straight, able-bodied men.

These lines get blurred quite a bit when you add good old fashioned capitalism into the mix, which is why we might see a black man become quite rich - but he's still more likely to be stopped and searched and face abuse as a result of his skin colour than a white man, and indeed more than a white woman. It's why we might see a rich white woman find it easier to pursue her dreams than a poor white woman, but she's still more likely to be raped than a rich white man or a poor white man or a poor black man, etc., while at the same time she's less likely to be raped than a poor woman, particularly if that woman is not white.

Patriarchy and capitalism are complex interwoven things that act on all of us constantly.

For example, the systems and circumstances that stop women from being able to enjoy the freedom men do when it comes to matters of childcare and parenthood are the same ones that might cause some judges to give mothers preference in custody cases -- women are built up in society to be seen as the 'natural' caregiver, they get less job opportunities, get less money, have less time to spend pursuing anything outside of childrearing, are described by their role as 'mother' before anything else, are treated as baby-making factories, and so on, so when they fight against that automatic role they are given they are also fighting for the benefit of men to be allowed to have that role should they wish, the outcome of breaking down that stereotype of woman as mother will also break down the stereotype of man as distant parent and enable them to be more active in their child's life without fear of being seen as less than a 'real' man.

I say 'some judges' because while this is bandied around loudly by a lot of men's rights types and so on, there's evidence that all is not as it seems. In addition, certainly in the US when state courts are assessing what is in the best needs of the child they often look to who has been the 'primary caregiver' over the child's life so far, and because of the way women are automatically expected to be the primary caregiver it's only logical that they will end up being the ones who get custody. I'm sure there are plenty of men who will chime up and say "but I look after my child" or "I'd love to be the primary caregiver," and I'm sure there are a few who are, but overwhelmingly, just in terms of weight of numbers, time and time again it ends up working out the other way. If women are given custody more often than men, is that because women are more powerful than men? Is it because women have more freedom than men? Is it because women are the ones who make decisions about this? Is it because women are in control? Is it because women get preferential treatment and men are treated like crap? No to all of the above. It's because women are subject to the biases of a system that expects them to take on a particular role - a role that proscribes their success and behaviour and equal opportunity. Men are also subject to the biases of that system. For the most part they benefit from it, but as soon as they don't it's the woman's fault? No. It's the system's fault. Fight it TOGETHER.

I'm sure, Johnny, you'll reply with "But..." Don't waste your breath. I'm not interested in what you have to say. You've shown little to no interest in giving even the smallest of shits about anything anyone has to say about any of this. Ever. You have your worldview, and you're determined that no woman ever is going to be allowed to explain her experience of life without you telling her she's got it all wrong somehow, and that really she should incorporate what you think about it all. Or you'll give us some guff about this woman you know from some place somewhere who totally agrees with you and doesn't have it as bad as all that, so everything else is invalidated.

Don't bother. Just fuck off. You show a glimmer, here and there, that you might be listening, but in the end you just can't help yourself, you just have to wade in with the same old shit. You're told time and time again that what you say is bullshit, that it's not welcome, and I'm yet to see one positive outcome for you on any thread about this sort of thing that you contribute to. Shouldn't that give you a hint that you're on a hiding to nothing?

Do us all a favour. Fuck off. Read these threads if you want. Try to educate yourself, please. But do us all a favour and let us have the space to discuss things without having to fend off your puerile fucking bullshit over and over and over again.

I am a woman, in a thread about International Women's Day, TELLING you to give us the space to talk about issues that affect women without having to navigate your derailing shit yet again. I'm not asking you. I'm telling you. Fuck off.
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Frankly, a 'like' doesn't really seem enough.
 
They always used to make a bigger thing of IWD in China, see this year the state has marked the occasion by arresting some women activists:
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2015/03/07/china-harassment-international-womens-day-activists/
They were organising against harassment on public transport, clearly a case of the security system cracking down on any extra-official collective action as there's nothing the state should see as threatening in that on the face of it (nominally they ought to support these women but of course it's all lip service).
 
JimW said:
<snip> They were organising against harassment on public transport, clearly a case of the security system cracking down on any extra-official collective action as there's nothing the state should see as threatening in that on the face of it (nominally they ought to support these women but of course it's all lip service).
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:mad:
 
Johnny Vodka said:
No, I entirely get it, and nothing I've said goes against what you've said in this post.
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Yes it has.
Technically people "can" celebrate IWD however they want.
Yes lots have people have chosen to focus on the positive. Highlighting women's achievement in history for example.
But it doesn't make the bad shit automatically disappear.

Men (and women too) have chosen to celebrate/recognise it by mocking/trashing it etc.
Do they have the right to? Yes.
Should they? Imho, no.

It's a complicated thing.

You asked a question about women's issues that seemed genuine.
Got an answer and poo pood it instantly.

It's what you always seem to do.
 
Thanks weepiper
If there was anything even more depressing than the sexist display on stage at the Labour conference it was the reaction of many of its top Scottish political figures who couldn’t get to twitter quick enough to share with the world the ecstasy of the moment as they ejaculated excitedly in praise of Hamilton and his misogynist outburst. That rush of adrenalin was only matched by the later stampede to their twitter pages to delete their support for Hamilton’s mysoginist outburst. That only happened when it was pointed out by their political opponents how outrageous his remarks were. Until then these guys, the same ones who approved the thick wee woman political broadcast during the referendum debate and the pink lady bus, were unaware there was anything amiss with demeaning women – och, can’t you take a joke? Remember that? You will if you were part of the women’s movements from, well – as far back as you like but let’s stick with the 1970s. Picture the scene – Aberdeen during the miners’ strike and a group of miners went around the country looking for help when the Tory government was intent on starving them back to work. In Aberdeen there was a strong Women’s Liberation group and members, all just getting by themselves, bought groceries and donated cash to help the miners’ families. When handing it over the all-male contingent looked at each other and laughed conspiratorially – they didn’t believe in women’s lib they said. A bit non-plussed the food and money were, nevertheless, handed over and accepted, albeit with a few sniggers, but it was perplexing how anyone in a struggle during the 1970s could still think in that way – that women anywhere were a subclass of human.

Hamilton, a former miner, was expressing this same bankrupt view of woman over 30 years later. It is ignorance and stupidity and prejudice all rolled into one unedifying performance. And yet even more disturbing was the reaction of women in the audience. Labour Party women laughing their silly heads off at this man’s comments.

... The trades union movement was steeped in sexism. Attitudes and practice that prevented women getting equal pay and conditions with men for over a century. Hamilton proved they are still very much with us now and his audience of Labour Party men and women exposed themselves as a hindrance to the efforts of women to be taken seriously in work, any type of work. I suspect International Women’s Day will have given rise to quite a number of winked asides based on the idea of women getting above themselves. Now we know this is the official position of the Labour Party in Scotland. Lassies get back into the kitchen and get my tea on the table and you can forget about International Women’s Day.
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Interesting article, shows how little has changed - I was very suspicious of unions back then, they were very sexist and 'jobs for the boys'. I thought the miners strike and the experiences of the miners outside their own communities challenged that. Miners' families had to organise to feed their communities. There was lots of female solidarity going on around the miners strike and it changed many of the women involved, politicised them, educated them and broke up many families.

Sound as if Hamilton has learned nothing. Do todays politicians still think they can come out with this shit?
 
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JimW said:
They always used to make a bigger thing of IWD in China, see this year the state has marked the occasion by arresting some women activists:
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2015/03/07/china-harassment-international-womens-day-activists/
They were organising against harassment on public transport, clearly a case of the security system cracking down on any extra-official collective action as there's nothing the state should see as threatening in that on the face of it (nominally they ought to support these women but of course it's all lip service).
Click to expand...
Liked for the info link, not the harassment
 
JimW said:
They always used to make a bigger thing of IWD in China, see this year the state has marked the occasion by arresting some women activists:
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2015/03/07/china-harassment-international-womens-day-activists/
They were organising against harassment on public transport, clearly a case of the security system cracking down on any extra-official collective action as there's nothing the state should see as threatening in that on the face of it (nominally they ought to support these women but of course it's all lip service).
Click to expand...

Fucking hell. To be scared of some people sticking some stickers on buses and so on?

It's in Japan, isn't it, where there are separate women-only carriages because of the harassment?

Ah, it seems like there are a few places like that, with differing reasons for it.

It's both sad and angering that it would even be an option. On the one hand, I can understand why someone might say we'll introduce women-only carriages to make sure there's a space for women to feel safe, but ffs, if you actually think about the effect that has - telling women that they shouldn't be around men because men can't help themselves, that the mere sight of a woman has a man trying to grab her arse or shove a camera up her skirt, and that the solution isn't to target the dickheaded cunts who do that but to tell the women that for their own safety and peace of mind they should alter their behaviour and avoid that kind of man. It's the same fucking victim-blaming shit that tells women not to get drunk, or has that cunting fucking Eurovision song we're sending saying "be careful around men because you're really pretty and you know what men are like!!" :mad: It's so fucking pernicious, no one recognises that shit when it's staring you in the face.

And all of this when there's the horrors of the attack in India in the news again because of the film and so on. Freida Pinto was on Newsnight tonight and she was talking about how when Indian children are born the boy is given a full glass of milk and the girl a half glass of milk, because boys are meant to grow up to be big and strong and are more important than girls, and she did a very good job of showing just how fucking important those subtle messages are in how we form our ideas about gender and roles. It's the same with the gender coding of kids' toys that no end of people will tell you is a silly little thing to bother your pretty little head over. No it's fucking not. It's all important. It's all interconnected. It all builds up a picture of what we expect of boys and girls and the worth we place on them as a society.

weepiper will forever be my hero for the Bic for Her campaign :)
 
Not directly related to any IWD events, but I've started trying to read We Hunted the Mammoth a bit more regularly. It's an interesting repository of some of the various fucked up examples of what it calls the 'new misogyny' - which tbh is a pretty good name for the particular phenomenon we've seen of late. Depressing as hell, but at the same time it's good to have a place where everyone's on the same side in recognising this bullshit for what it is.
 
And from that site, this wonderful piece of god only knows from those bastions of cuntwomblery, A Voice for Men.

strawavfm1.jpg


Have we achieved all of these worthy goals yet, sisters? If not, let's step to it! There are men out there who still think they have rights!
 
Vintage Paw said:
Not directly related to any IWD events, but I've started trying to read We Hunted the Mammoth a bit more regularly. It's an interesting repository of some of the various fucked up examples of what it calls the 'new misogyny' - which tbh is a pretty good name for the particular phenomenon we've seen of late. Depressing as hell, but at the same time it's good to have a place where everyone's on the same side in recognising this bullshit for what it is.
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Thanks for the link to We Hunted the Mammoth. It is astonishing (and thoroughly disheartening) to see so much hatred . I'm really at a loss for words :(
 
Vintage Paw said:
...

Have we achieved all of these worthy goals yet, sisters? If not, let's step to it! There are men out there who still think they have rights!
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Eek! I'm a failure. :facepalm: I didn't even know I was meant to want all those (VERY odd) things.

They have a strange way of expressing themselves. Example:

"the right to kill, maim and berate husbands" does somehow make it sound as though killing is bad, maiming is worse, but, having done all that after that, to go on to "berate"? Oh, berating is the worst, obviously. :D
 
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Vintage Paw said:
And from that site, this wonderful piece of god only knows from those bastions of cuntwomblery, A Voice for Men.

strawavfm1.jpg


Have we achieved all of these worthy goals yet, sisters? If not, let's step to it! There are men out there who still think they have rights!
Click to expand...
Wow
 
Vintage Paw said:
Not directly related to any IWD events, but I've started trying to read We Hunted the Mammoth a bit more regularly. It's an interesting repository of some of the various fucked up examples of what it calls the 'new misogyny' - which tbh is a pretty good name for the particular phenomenon we've seen of late. Depressing as hell, but at the same time it's good to have a place where everyone's on the same side in recognising this bullshit for what it is.
Click to expand...
Sorry couldn't bear to watch that, but thankks for highlighting it, I've had enough of rape apologists 'banter' at work this week.
A male co worker, who often likes to entertain us with his sexist views, was holding forth in the staff tearoom said very loudly "15yr old? rape? They should print a photo of her and let us decide if she was asking for it" (re Metro cover story of 27yr old footballer with 15yr old girl) I threatened him with violence* if he didn't shut up, and called him a nonce, and put in a formal complaint. its depressing.
*Not sensible I know
 
friendofdorothy said:
Sorry couldn't bear to watch that, but thankks for highlighting it, I've had enough of rape apologists 'banter' at work this week.
A male co worker, who often likes to entertain us with his sexist views, was holding forth in the staff tearoom said very loudly "15yr old? rape? They should print a photo of her and let us decide if she was asking for it" (re Metro cover story of 27yr old footballer with 15yr old girl) I threatened him with violence* if he didn't shut up, and called him a nonce, and put in a formal complaint. its depressing.
*Not sensible I know
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Fucking hell that's disgusting. I hope there are repercussions for him, because frankly 'free speech' can fuck off, that sort of things should be fucking shut down immediately.
 
friendofdorothy said:
Sorry couldn't bear to watch that, but thankks for highlighting it, I've had enough of rape apologists 'banter' at work this week.
A male co worker, who often likes to entertain us with his sexist views, was holding forth in the staff tearoom said very loudly "15yr old? rape? They should print a photo of her and let us decide if she was asking for it" (re Metro cover story of 27yr old footballer with 15yr old girl) I threatened him with violence* if he didn't shut up, and called him a nonce, and put in a formal complaint. its depressing.
*Not sensible I know
Click to expand...
That's vile. In the US you would probably be able to see your employer for creating a hostile work environment.

Well done for having such restraint in not hitting him with an ace, even though he was clearly asking for it.
 
Thank sisters - HR have to their credit taken it very seriously. They had an word with him, informally at this stage, and warned him they will escalate the complaint, to formal with the manager if there are any further reports at all. I get the impression all the other men are pissed off with him too.
 
friendofdorothy said:
Thank sisters - HR have to their credit taken it very seriously. They had an word with him, informally at this stage, and warned him they will escalate the complaint, to formal with the manager if there are any further reports at all. I get the impression all the other men are pissed off with him too.
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I'm glad they're taking it seriously, so often these complaints go nowhere.
 
friendofdorothy said:
He has been very polite and quiet since, so maybe its working.
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This is a good point, actually. People are used to being challenged online, and it rarely has any effect on their behaviour. But people aren't quite so used to having those kinds of attitudes challenged in person. That's why it's so important that women and other men call out these pricks whenever they say something, and escalate it if necessary. Muttering under your breath about what shits they are isn't going to do anything, but confronting them over it might. Not always. But might. And sadly, even though it shouldn't be like this, men challenging other men over this type of behaviour often has a big effect where they might just brush off a woman for being a "shouty feminist."

It's why it's not enough for men to say "I'm an ally, I support you" - they have to do something about that and support through action, otherwise it's hollow and meaningless.
 
Vintage Paw said:
. And sadly, even though it shouldn't be like this, men challenging other men over this type of behaviour often has a big effect where they might just brush off a woman for being a "shouty feminist."

It's why it's not enough for men to say "I'm an ally, I support you" - they have to do something about that and support through action, otherwise it's hollow and meaningless.
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This is something I've come to realise over the last however long. I used to think the 'right' thing for me to do was to stand back and let the women fight their fight, but that's obviously balls.

If friends, workmates, classmates or anyone starts coming out with bullshit it's important, as you say, for men to actually say something. Apart from anything else, sexists will usually pay more heed to another man and besides, bigots invariably see silence as a sign of approval, so it's not enough for us as men to give women a thumbs up and let them know we have their back without so much as a "g'wan yersel', hen".
 
Had this link to an interview with a mate of the women detained in China on one of my mailing lists:

http://chuangcn.org/2015/03/gender-...ith-a-friend-of-the-womens-day-five-1st-half/

Some good insights into both the problems of organising even fairly innocuous stuff in China and the continuing retreat from even an official pretence of some sort of progressive gender politics. "Problem of women not getting married", "Crisis of boys" etc.
 
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