Industrial music and its relationship(??) to fascism

[frogwoman]

absolutely fucking awesome live. iirc links was their response to being accused of having right wing politics.

they have consisantly denied any Nazi sympathies and , again iirc, have said if anything they have left\socialist leanings politics wise

Same with Laibach.

 

[frogwoman]

aye definitely one of ours

 

[Fozzie Bear]

On my phone and on holiday but a good compilation called "Noise In Opposition" has been released today.

http://noiseopposition.wordpress.com/

(In opposition to racism/misogyny and related imagery in industrial and noise music). Worth reading the brief manifesto on the site.

 

[frogwoman]

cheers mate.

 

[frogwoman]

I've stuck a link to it on the blog by the way.

 

[killer b]

in a short exchange with the black dog on twitter last night, they said they'd have nowt to do with dominic fernow (of vatican shadow / prurient / etc fame) 'cause some of his music is distributed via cold spring, who apparently also sell some dodgy stuff.

is this a step too far do you think? looking on the cold spring website, they also distribute PTV, machinefabriek, zeni geva and a load of other non-nazi stuff. thoughts? Fozzie Bear

 

[Fozzie Bear]

in a short exchange with the black dog on twitter last night, they said they'd have nowt to do with dominic fernow (of vatican shadow / prurient / etc fame) 'cause some of his music is distributed via cold spring, who apparently also sell some dodgy stuff.

is this a step too far do you think? looking on the cold spring website, they also distribute PTV, machinefabriek, zeni geva and a load of other non-nazi stuff. thoughts? Fozzie Bear

I think having as little as possible to do with Cold Spring is a good idea. I used to be good friends with the guy who runs it (and indeed knew him before he set it up) but we drifted apart in the nineties for obvious reasons. This was before he started releasing stuff by Tr*y S*uthgate and Von Throstall (sp?) who are fascist (and compulsive self-googlers in the case of the former)

I certainly won't buy anything from their distro or anything on their label, which is mildly annoying because they have released stuff by people I like such as Skullflower.

Maybe not having anything to do with someone who is distributed by them is a step to far though - it's never clear to me how much of that is to do with artists or their labels.

But it is good to see The Black Dog take a clear position - Fernow and some of that "scene" seem quite comfortable with neofolk and seem to revel in the dodginess of it in some cases.

 

[butchersapron]

Opp for a non-politically-transgressive music lover with a van and mates with vans here. I shall get a business plan together.

 

[killer b]

I don't really know anything about cold spring tbh - do you have any links with more info about their dodginess?

disappointed to see PTV have released music on their actual label - but i guess GPO always was a bit of a bell...

 

[killer b]

agree that it's good the black dog are making noise about it - there's been a lot talked about industrial noise influences in recent techno, but little about the politics of some involved in the scene: best not let people try to brush it off...

 

[butchersapron]

Is there an article outlining who is who and what positions they are taking? (Wider than just these last few posts i mean)

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Opp for a non-politically-transgressive music lover with a van and mates with vans here. I shall get a business plan together.

Mr Spring has been doing distro for about 20 years now. I think the shine wore off about a decade ago and he is now trapped in a prison of black artwork, runic inscriptions and limited edition box sets of shit music. Depressing!

 

[butchersapron]

Mr Spring has been doing distro for about 20 years now. I think the shine wore off about a decade ago and he is now trapped in a prison of black artwork, runic inscriptions and limited edition box sets of shit music. Depressing!

Oh god, all this stuff is now vaguely ok again as well. I was listening to the Var album last night - it's just got racism in its genes. Despite the people not being openly racist or even aware that they are using racist stuff.

 

[butchersapron]

Mr Spring has been doing distro for about 20 years now. I think the shine wore off about a decade ago and he is now trapped in a prison of black artwork, runic inscriptions and limited edition box sets of shit music. Depressing!

Never put the LPs with runes on the cover by the door. Schoolboy error.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I don't really know anything about cold spring tbh - do you have any links with more info about their dodginess?

disappointed to see PTV have released music on their actual label - but i guess GPO always was a bit of a bell...

It's more about what they have released/distributed than what they actually believe (at least what is in the public domain)

http://www.whomakesthenazis.com/2010/11/troy-southgate-new-right-and-old-nazis.html

"Von Thronstahl has contributed tracks to tribute albums for Leni Riefenstahl, Julius Evola, Josef Thorak, Corneliu Zelea Codreanu, Hermann Hendrich, and Arno Breker." (wikipedia)

They've also released Tony Wakeford stuff.

Cold Spring grew out of TOPY, so perhaps not that surprising. And I imagine the money was right.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Is there an article outlining who is who and what positions they are taking? (Wider than just these last few posts i mean)

With this techno stuff I think "taking positions" is not really what is happening, it's more associations and a nod and a wink.

So you might get Death In June and Boyd Rice tracks on a mixtape:
http://www.factmag.com/2012/08/28/h...-regis-featuring-coil-cocteau-twins-and-more/

Or you might even get your gigs cancelled because you think having Boyd Rice as a support act is a jolly jape:
http://www.factmag.com/2013/06/27/cold-cave-concerts-cancelled-due-to-inclusion-of-boyd-rice/

 

[killer b]

Oh god, all this stuff is now vaguely ok again as well. I was listening to the Var album last night - it's just got racism in its genes. Despite the people not being openly racist or even aware that they are using racist stuff.

I think it's just with the new-found popularity of the blackest ever black type stuff with it's obvious industrial roots, new people are listening to the older stuff stripped of context. if you're downloading an MP3 file of Non, it just sounds like incredible proto techno - the fascist stuff isn't actully that obvious at first glance.

 

[butchersapron]

With this techno stuff I think "taking positions" is not really what is happening, it's more associations and a nod and a wink.

So you might get Death In June and Boyd Rice tracks on a mixtape:
http://www.factmag.com/2012/08/28/h...-regis-featuring-coil-cocteau-twins-and-more/

Or you might even get your gigs cancelled because you think having Boyd Rice as a support act is a jolly jape:
http://www.factmag.com/2013/06/27/cold-cave-concerts-cancelled-due-to-inclusion-of-boyd-rice/

Cheers. I used to find this stuff crazy and impossible to follow, but if you concentrate on a few groups you can get the feel of it. I think.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Oh god, all this stuff is now vaguely ok again as well. I was listening to the Var album last night - it's just got racism in its genes. Despite the people not being openly racist or even aware that they are using racist stuff.

Well I think this was the idea all along - the "cultural war" aspect of it. Getting people to use imagery /see things in a certain way - but not being explicit about it.

 

[killer b]

that's two strikes (at least) against regis btw. poor show

 

[butchersapron]

Well I think this was the idea all along - the "cultural war" aspect of it. Getting people to use imagery /see things in a certain way - but not being explicit about it.

Absolutely. The people behind this strategy were quite overt about their covertnsess too.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Blackest Ever Black have been key, as Killer B says. Released some lauded techno by Raime, but also see fit to distro old Sol Invictus records.

And the label boss works for FACT magazine, who have given Boyd Rice a fairly easy ride...

 

[Casually Red]

But some of them, like Laibach etc, are just doing it to shock and many are actually socialists or anarchists, and it often becomes clear if you listen to the lyrics in more depth. Some of them make music about the second world war, but from a standpoint of being opposed to it.
But nonetheless there does seem to be a few fans who seem quite attracted to the ideas of the far right because of the music's whole "image" and I know a few people who are put off listening to it for that reason. But what Im wondering is to what extent there is anything more than that, and how this whole thing came about tbh.
.

i cant stand industrial music but I do like Laibach for some strange reason . My favourite one is their take on that catchy little ditty by Opus, Life is life. Back in the day when Opus were running about they were at the forefront of the one united europe happy clappy mullet music scene . Laibach seem to have went...hmmm..someone had an idea like that before . At least thats my take on it . Absolutely shit myself when i first saw this and knew nothing about them .



I think they had a bit of a problem a while back in that their stuff was a bit too clever and a lot of fash did actually think they were fash . Laibach had a habit in their concerts of arranging their fans in ordered blocks, Nuremberg style . Loads of fash turned up and fucking loved it . Much to the bands disgust

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

But then Laibach are listed on the cold spring site just above. So are they 'not OK' after all?

 

[Casually Red]

All I know is they definitely arent fash, havent a clue about the ins and outs of the scene itself or labels.

seems to be a good article there

http://www.losthighwaytimes.com/2011/03/laibach-and-neofolk-fascisma.html

 

[Fozzie Bear]

But then Laibach are listed on the cold spring site just above. So are they 'not OK' after all?

Cold Spring release and distribute thousands of artists, some of whom are dodgy. I think Laibach are broadly OK, although being distributed by Cold Spring shows poor judgement.

(Also, in passing, some Laibach fans run a blog which has been quite hostile to the Who Makes The Nazis site.)

 

[mojo pixy]

so whats more fascist then? blackmetal or industrial??

I was wondering how long it'd be before Black Metal came up. There's a definite fash undercurrent there, and I try to avoid it so I can't give many examples but Varg Vikernes the convicted murderer is definitely a good example (he says he's 'moved away from' Nazism but you know .. they always say that)

NSBM (National Socialist Black Metal) is definitely a thing, sad to say. Some of those guys think they have to be nazi or at least sympathetic, in order to be true to their pagan roots and culture (which is a far more important aspect to black metal). BM is notoriously anti-religious, and the religions that are especially hated are christianity, islam and judaism - for a lot of reasons, some of which for them verge on (or are actually) racist and antisemitic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_black_metal

Anyway, ETA, this kind of thing is largely limited to scandinavia, though it's fair to say that there are racists who like all kinds of music and the various genres and subgenres of metal are certainly not immune - unsurprising, when you consider how popular metal is globally, as an artform.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I was wondering how long it'd be before Black Metal came up. There's a definite fash undercurrent there, and I try to avoid it so I can't give many examples but Varg Vikernes the convicted murderer is definitely a good example (he says he's 'moved away from' Nazism but you know .. they always say that)

NSBM (National Socialist Black Metal) is definitely a thing, sad to say. Some of those guys think they have to be nazi or at least sympathetic, in order to be true to their pagan roots and culture (which is a far more important aspect to black metal). BM is notoriously anti-religious, and the religions that are especially hated are christianity, islam and judaism - for a lot of reasons, some of which for them verge on (or are actually) racist and antisemitic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_black_metal

Anyway, ETA, this kind of thing is largely limited to scandinavia, though it's fair to say that there are racists who like all kinds of music and the various genres and subgenres of metal are certainly not immune - unsurprising, when you consider how popular metal is globally, as an artform.

Black Metal obviously has it's fascists but I don't think they tend to go in for the sort of things being talked about here so much do they? The deliberate ambiguity and blurred lines and flirting with right wing imagery. As far as it's there it's far more open - anyone who listens to Varg Vikernes' stuff probably knows exactly what they're getting into.

 

[mojo pixy]

Black Metal obviously has it's fascists but I don't think they tend to go in for the sort of things being talked about here so much do they? The deliberate ambiguity and blurred lines and flirting with right wing imagery. As far as it's there it's far more open - anyone who listens to Varg Vikernes' stuff probably knows exactly what they're getting into.

Yes, I agree - though to be honest the amount of actual lyrics you can hear in BM is tiny and if they're saying something dodgy (or amazing) it's very hard to tell...

The main reason I think black metal has this 'edge' (let's call it) is the neo-pagan streak with runs brightly and conspicuously through the music and culture. A lot of the best (or at least, most influential) bands in this genre have been scandinavian and there's a huge neo-pagan / satanist subculture there, and it overlaps a good deal for cultural reasons with the extreme right-wing

There is a theory (denied by Vikernes) that he killed the guy he killed (Euronymous, bass player from Mayhem, real name Øystein Aarseth) for being a communist (which he definitely was). I imagine that was one reason, but from hearing the story from several points of view it certainly wasn't the main reason.

And there is that saving grace - also present in black metal is a (wider) streak of libertarian / socialist / anarchist / left. Which is why I won't condemn the scene out of hand (also, I happen like the music, heh)

ETA (finally) - and there's the church burning stuff. i find it hard to condemn that, whoever did it.

 

[xslavearcx]

Obviously this example is floridan DM (way better than black metal iho) but with david vincent and pete sandoval being involved in the grind band terrorizor with its leftie lyrics, contrasted with being in the lineup of morbid angel with its fascist lyrics would suggest that it can be very little to do with convictions but about a certain type of aesthetic that circulates in a particular scene. in this case grind leftie, DM, fascist leanings.. I'd imagine its similiar a lot of the time with black metal and industrial..