Industrial music and its relationship(??) to fascism
- Thread starter frogwoman
- Start date
ouchmonkey
Singe Gainsbourg
was that supposed to be flippant? 'cos the rest of the post wasn't
you'd be cool with the EDL burning mosques then?
'cos I really don't think that's an acceptable position
thinking about it, I have a british murder boys 12" which features part of the recording from the jonestown massacre. can we assume he's just a bit thick and doesn't think things through properly? 'cause that's proper teen goff dickhead stuff isn't it?
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
I've not heard that before. TBH although it is a bit juvenile it doesn't seem problematic to me in the way the fascist stuff is. It's just shock value, plus a general aggressive tone, it's not trying to influence anyone.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
I think in some ways the Jonestown massacre is the ultimate criticism of both religion and general cultish behaviour. (see Suicide for Socialism by Maurice Brinton). So it depends on context really. VDO released the recordings as an album in the early eighties when that would have been a mad thing to do and quite shocking.
Sticking it on a techno record in the noughties is a bit more questionable, which is maybe the point. Are you asking questions about it or tossing yourself off at how "dark" you are sticking a recording of a massacre on your record?
This also happened with the Charles Manson stuff (which is now even more cliched than Jonestown). There were people (PTV) who argued they were critiquing both the happy clappy version of the 60s and also the conformist nature of the Manson family (and trying to freak people out). But then you get Amok Press' "The Manson File" which tries to uncritically portray Manson as some kind of groovy psychedelic Nazi messiah. Which is an entry point for hardcore nazis like James Mason into 90s US counter-culture.
i'm not suggesting it's problematic so much as being evidence of him being a bit of a crass dickhead rather than sympathetic to the views of boyd and his ilk.
fwiw i love regis' music, and find the aesthetic the BMB went for very appealing. i don't think they were really saying anything though, other than 'this shit is dark & heavy'. which it is.
ouchmonkey
Singe Gainsbourg
I like that BMB tune - I don't really have a problem with it either - if you didn't know it was Jim Jones then you wouldn't know IYSWIM
I've heard much queasier use of his speeches
and that whole project draws strongly on earlier industrial stuff and pretty harsh imagery
without ever, as far as I've noticed, giving any room to any dubious fascist stuff
what we're talking about here really is him including Boyd Rice in mixes, and
the other half of British Murder Boys (the name was Regis' btw) Surgeon has also
often played Whitehouse in his sets (to great effect I can attest) and is vocal in supporting
William Bennett over difficulties regarding his alleged racism
something he has finally made a clear denial about
on the whole though - I really don't think they're dodgy
I've heard much queasier use of his speeches
and that whole project draws strongly on earlier industrial stuff and pretty harsh imagery
without ever, as far as I've noticed, giving any room to any dubious fascist stuff
what we're talking about here really is him including Boyd Rice in mixes, and
the other half of British Murder Boys (the name was Regis' btw) Surgeon has also
often played Whitehouse in his sets (to great effect I can attest) and is vocal in supporting
William Bennett over difficulties regarding his alleged racism
something he has finally made a clear denial about
on the whole though - I really don't think they're dodgy
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Fair enough, I wouldn't really argue with that (and I think BMB are great too fwiw.)
That kind of loops us right back to the start of the thread doesn't it. Where does 'transgressive art' meet crass dickheadery meet dodgy right wing allusion meet outright fascism?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
And who writes forewords to his books and publishes them...
edit: oops, didn't see your link.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
That seems like a positive thing to me. Saying 'I don't think he's racist and here's why' is a lot stronger than muttering something about art.
ETA: Not that you're saying it isn't, just picking that out.
ouchmonkey
Singe Gainsbourg
It's all these fuckers fault basically. especially that wee guy on the left.
he gets cut a ridiculous amount of slack I think
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
I don't think you can necessarily blame them for what they inspired. But that doesn't mean they are above criticism, certainly.
ouchmonkey
Singe Gainsbourg
well no. and I was being a bit provocative but most of the general threads that swirl around
'industrial music and it's relationship to fascism'
are there in TG including the key problem which is the use of extreme imagery without clarity
'industrial music and it's relationship to fascism'
are there in TG including the key problem which is the use of extreme imagery without clarity
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
I think they were declared to be 'OK but occasionally showing poor judgement in association - pass with minor corrections.'
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
Listen to whatever you want, froggie
I think Laibach's politics are probably OK. Unfortunately some of their fans seem to like "totalitarian chic" a bit too much.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Go indie.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
I think TG were pretty clear about what they were doing when you got beyond the imagery and read interviews with them.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
I thought they (Laibach) were just doing all that marching around and weird uniforms to take the piss out of fash, not to actually be fash themselves. At least thats what I always thought
Yes - and there is also a critique of soviet/stalinistic stuff too, iirc. And poking fun at pop music.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
What about Wumpscut then? I really like most of his stuff but some of his fans are a bit worrying to say the least going by youtube comments etc. I also heard that he was Jewish which puts a different light on what a lot of his songs are about. But in interviews when he's asked about a lot of the messages in his songs he's quite ambivalent about it. Maybe it's because he's been asked that question a few too many times. I dunno.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Just about every single interview with these people (on all sides) about this issue goes along those sort of evasive ambiguous lines.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
They were a bit after my time. Not heard anything bad about them and a lot of groups have very stupid fans.
I think people draw the line in different places.
For me, I listen to a load of stuff by people who are probably massively homophobic (reggae) who may or may not express this in their lyrics or interviews (and I'd generally try and avoid overtly homophobic tracks and certainly not play them in public).
I also avoid people with direct links with fascist political groups or individuals. Or people I just get a bad whiff off.
But you can't ever know whether someone is secretly "dodgy" so it's not worth beating yourself up about.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Because that would be too black and white and we're just interested in the shades, and of blah blah
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
Because they have bought into this thing of being a Mysterious Dark Artist. Lots of comments on Who Makes The Nazis seem to say that artists are somehow "above" politics, like this is a get out of jail free card.
it's because they're idiot children. Or possibly actual fascists. One or the other though.
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