Industrial music and its relationship(??) to fascism

[frogwoman]

there are some i defo won't listen to like Nachtmahr who do use overtly nazi and racist themes in their lyrics. but i dunno, listening to stuff like die sektor's latest album makes me feel a bit grubby even though i don't actually think they are fash, they're just being stupid and "provocative".

also i think a lot of these industrial bands like to do a track from the "point of view" of somebody whether or not they agree with the point of view being put across (a lot of the time they don't to be fair and the song makes it clear)

 

[killer b]

i don't think that even being overtly fascist make an artist's work completely devoid of merit - as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, i think boyd rice's black album is an astonishing piece of work. but while i'll happily listen to it at home, i would stop short of buying his work, or promoting it.

although i suppose i'm promoting it now.

if you do listen to it, make sure you pirate it, hmm?

 

[butchersapron]

there are some i defo won't listen to like Nachtmahr who do use overtly nazi and racist themes in their lyrics. but i dunno, listening to stuff like die sektor's latest album makes me feel a bit grubby even though i don't actually think they are fash, they're just being stupid and "provocative".

also i think a lot of these industrial bands like to do a track from the "point of view" of somebody whether or not they agree with the point of view being put across (a lot of the time they don't to be fair and the song makes it clear)

Nothing wrong with strong characterisation, its them flirting with the character that's the problem. No one really thinks Mark E Smith actually bought some wings that allowed him to time travel and he went to the US civil war (in manchester!) and fragged some brass - that's because he understands the literary value of characterisation and doesn't try and blur it with himself. These people don't and do. As killer b said, they are children.

 

[sunnysidedown]

but there are bands like detroit diesel and fgfc820 who are pretty clear that they are anti-fash and anti-racism. why can't they all be like that?

considering that 2 of the main figures from within the neo-folk scene (who have been quite happy playing the 'now you see it now you don't' fascist ambiguity line) used to be members of the SWP, it would appear that things aren't as clear cut as you would like them to be.

 

[butchersapron]

considering that 2 of the main figures from within the neo-folk scene (who have been quite happy playing the 'now you see it now you don't' fascist ambiguity line) used to be members of the SWP, it would appear that things aren't as clear cut as you would like them to be.

I think it can be safely said they only flirted with communism.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

One of them was IMG.

This is a useful early text criticising them (before more info came out):

WE MEAN IT MAN: PUNK ROCK AND ANTI-RACISM or, Death In June not mysterious

 

[killer b]

i quite like crisis, although they exhibited a similarly unsubtle approach to to their subject matter that later bands did. i was laughing at a DiJ track someone posted on FB the other day

into the darkness, into the darkness, into the darkness

ridiculous. and that fucking mask.

 

[butchersapron]

(Wakeford signed up with MATB for some reason).

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah - and firky was implicated in that nonsense too.

 

[killer b]

wrong thread? unless firky has his fingers in more pies than previously imagined...

 

[Fozzie Bear]

That's a bit mad. Did he post anything?

 

[butchersapron]

Ooops sorry, that was meant for the posters who've disappeared thread.

 

[butchersapron]

That's a bit mad. Did he post anything?

A couple of faux-naive questions about euro-folk or pagan folk or whatever they call that stuff - rumbled pretty quickly (from the email he used to sign up i think). Then left.

 

[xslavearcx]

to be honest I've always wanted to record some of my own stuff. One day ..

Go for it.. but do good music. don't do a band with uber-leftie lyrics

 

[killer b]

I guessed so, although I was kind if hoping it was firky behind that fucking mask...

 

[butchersapron]

I guessed so, although I was kind if hoping it was firky behind that fucking mask...

I sort of wish that was true too

 

[sunnysidedown]

One of them was IMG.

This is a useful early text criticising them (before more info came out):

WE MEAN IT MAN: PUNK ROCK AND ANTI-RACISM or, Death In June not mysterious

I stand corrected, DP was IMG, been a while since i read home's piece.

"Despite the lip service they paid to Trotskyism, Pearce and Wakeford were in practice closer to Proudhonian anarchism."

You've got to keep an eye on those anarchists

Were DP & TW involved with C93 when Steve Ignorant was collaborating?

 

[frogwoman]

Go for it.. but do good music. don't do a band with uber-leftie lyrics

Christ, no I'd have some leftie songs but the rest would be other stuff.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Were DP & TW involved with C93 when Steve Ignorant was collaborating?

Not 100% but I think Steve Ignorant was earlier - he does vocals on the "Dogs Blood Rising" album (when C93 were all slowed down monk chants and growling noises).

That album you posted the cover of was from their later "strummy guitars" era.

 

[xslavearcx]

Christ, no I'd have some leftie songs but the rest would be other stuff.

yeah, you want to avoid the danger of being like billy bragg or crass or something haha! i used to only listen to bands on the basis of 'thier message'. the amount of amazing gigs i passed by over the years, because the band werent preachy enough makes me want to cry...

 

[ouchmonkey]

I think TG were pretty clear about what they were doing when you got beyond the imagery and read interviews with them.

well kinda - I sometimes think Genesis never had any idea what he was doing.
yeah it's not hard to track down that they were intended to be a critique but it's garbled in with ideas about a cultural war. What I really meant was the coined the name 'Industrial' had that auschwitz image for the logo, that black red lightning strike insignia, Genesis wore swastikas used slaughterhouse films and so on loads of stuff which became the genre cliches we're often unhappy about when they are used carelessly

 

[killer b]

Why would you want to avoid being like crass? They were brilliant.

 

[ouchmonkey]

so what about laibach then? I thought they had good politics?

are there many industrial acts i can listen to without dodge?

everyone seems to think Laibach are OK
they seem to get a free pass because of the amount of humour they use - fascists never seem to have any -
they're also Slovenian, Laibach is the name the Germans gave Ljubjana when they briefly occupied and they banned from using it for years (they came up with that square cross NSK insignia) so considering the history of the region they're from I expect the subtleties of their politics are beyond most of us...

 

[sunnysidedown]

Not 100% but I think Steve Ignorant was earlier - he does vocals on the "Dogs Blood Rising" album (when C93 were all slowed down monk chants and growling noises).

That album you posted the cover of was from their later "strummy guitars" era.

I notice John Murphy was involved in both albums, a man with his finger in more than a couple of pies.

A visit to the Gulags and jails of North Korea, Saudi Arabia and areas still controlled by extemists such as the Taliban might be a bit of a real eye opener for many of these people ..safely living in western nations .they might just discover who the real long term enemy is .. Anyway that is my little rant for now ..Make of it what you will..

From SPK to Shining Vril

 

[Casually Red]

You've got to keep an eye on those anarchists

ive been saying that for ages

 

[Casually Red]

I thought they (Laibach) were just doing all that marching around and weird uniforms to take the piss out of fash, not to actually be fash themselves. At least thats what I always thought

my take on it has been they take some delight in holding up a fascist mirror to western liberalism, and pointing out how some of its themes look suspiciously familiar when looked at from a certain angle . Thats certainly what I got from their take on Life is life . Although my initial reaction on seeing it was wtf .
I read somewhere too that as regards the black cross symbolism and the like , unlike many other bands that claim to be using dodginess as a metaphor theyve got art degrees where they actually studied all those symbols in depth and have an acute knowlege of the subtleties . So have a more compelling case when it comes to their usage than others . Its not just that they are provocative, but that they are so over the top with it, and clever about it .

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Why would you want to avoid being like crass? They were brilliant.

because it doesn't sound like being in Crass was much fun.

 

[Casually Red]

I also think the fact theyre trained artists gives them a lot more license in an intellectual and artistic sense . Theres no denying the visuals used by the nazis in their displays were seriously impressive , they were compelling and moved millions of people . All the Reni Liefenstahl stuff, nuremberg rallies, drums and torchlit processions . It was a serious work of art in many ways, but at the same time absolutely fucking evil . So whats supposed to happen is your attracted to it but repelled by it at the same time . And if your not repelled it says more about you than it does Laibach . And applying that to western liberal themes as well justifies their use of it imho . I think the danger with other outfits is they cant claim to possess the same understanding or the same motivations as Laibach do, which means theyre in quite dodgy territory whether its intentional or not .
As another poster observed, either idiots or actual fash .

 

[butchersapron]

It's not ness them being trained - it's them understanding the stuff that training or brains would teach them - the training stuff is just for the technical stuff.

 

[Casually Red]

trained was probably a poor choice of word, experienced and qualified might convey my meaning better . Theyve a demonstrable understanding of the subject matter and its interpretation is what I meant .