Industrial music and its relationship(??) to fascism

[Fozzie Bear]

I'm interested in what you think about this Fozzie.....

I think he is fair game as Killer B says. But it is far too simplistic to say that Bennett is a nazi/racist.

I think his appropriation of African stuff is quite dodgy in places. He seems to have a boner for all the drug warlords and the Lords Resistance Army in the same way that he used to have a boner for serial killers.

The films he shows during Cut Hands gigs are definitely heavy on making Africa exotic/primitive. It could be argued that a whole bunch of people from 23 Skidoo to rasta reggae artists to The Cramps have done that already to a greater or lesser extent. But they didn't do it with the weight of Bennett's previous output to take into consideration.

I quite like some of the Cut Hands stuff and it is interesting to see him do it live. But it isn't unproblematic.

It's widely believed that Bennett pretended to be various African noise acts on the Extreme Music From Africa album which is sort of a pre-Cut Hands effort.

(It's also interesting that he seems to be doing all this some time after African noise acts like the Konono #1 have gained acceptance?)

It's also worth remembering that all these crazy ambiguous guys like Bennett and Tony Wakeford only make these sort of statements after pressure has been applied to them (usually threatening a loss of income in some way). So it's not like they have a change of heart or anything - it's a simple risk assessment.

 

[ouchmonkey]

this is pretty much what I'm thinking about it too...

there are a variety of things - one of them being the swedish band Goat
who me and others have decided are Massively Racist! in a slightly lazy way
they are certainly clumsy and their repurposing of african imagery and afro-beat elements
in their music and show far outstrip Bennett's in terms of their crassness.
interested parties can search youtube for the video to 'goatman'
a parade of clips of 'crazy africans' and voodoo-hoodoo cliche,
They called their record 'World Music' have a ridiculous back story about
swedish voodoo traditions and dress up in cod tribal gear and masks...
but i can't shake the feeling they aren't actually racist, just stupid.

 

[ouchmonkey]

not that they're industrial at all
I've gone off on a tangent here

but it started with Bennett and the idea an alleged former nazi was now making 'Afro noise'
(which, as you suggest, is nothing like as striking as say Konono No1)

Boyd Rice though, he's a cock as well

 

[sunnysidedown]

this is pretty much what I'm thinking about it too...

there are a variety of things - one of them being the swedish band Goat
who me and others have decided are Massively Racist! in a slightly lazy way
they are certainly clumsy and their repurposing of african imagery and afro-beat elements
in their music and show far outstrip Bennett's in terms of their crassness.
interested parties can search youtube for the video to 'goatman'
a parade of clips of 'crazy africans' and voodoo-hoodoo cliche,
They called their record 'World Music' have a ridiculous back story about
swedish voodoo traditions and dress up in cod tribal gear and masks...
but i can't shake the feeling they aren't actually racist, just stupid.

I blame King Kurt

 

[sunnysidedown]

The films he shows during Cut Hands gigs are definitely heavy on making Africa exotic/primitive.

He just ripped off Moodymann

 

[killer b]

Boyd Rice though, he's a cock as well

he is. i can't stop listening to the black album though, it's fucking ace.

 

[ska invita]

this is pretty much what I'm thinking about it too...

there are a variety of things - one of them being the swedish band Goat
who me and others have decided are Massively Racist! in a slightly lazy way
they are certainly clumsy and their repurposing of african imagery and afro-beat elements
in their music and show far outstrip Bennett's in terms of their crassness.

"is it racist" threads are perhaps overdone on urban, but are these videos really offensive? There are lots of videos these days being made from edited old footage, as its a cheap and effective way of getting a video done in a youtube era. Using bits of Shaka Zulu and Bond films and the like makes it come across as a bit tongue in cheek overall IMO. What made you and others decide they are Massive Racists? (though i know you also say they might just be stupid). I know nothing about them (though ive seen that video before, i think posted here, album of the year thread perhaps?)

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

"is it racist" threads are perhaps overdone on urban, but are these videos really offensive? There are lots of videos these days being made from edited old footage, as its a cheap and effective way of getting a video done in a youtube era. Using bits of Shaka Zulu and Bond films and the like makes it come across as a bit tongue in cheek overall IMO. What made you and others decide they are Massive Racists? (though i know you also say they might just be stupid). I know nothing about them (though ive seen that video before, i think posted here, album of the year thread perhaps?)

From google/wiki they seem to wear 'tribal' costume and claim to come from a town in Sweden with a Voodoo tradition. I'm not familiar enough with them to agree they're massive racists (!) but it definitely looks a step beyond the videos Bennett uses. How different is that to blacking up?

 

[ska invita]

blacking up has a very particular,loaded history, which isnt going to be forgotten any time soon. Playing at swedish voodooists looks like a bit of psych fun to me:

I cant imagine many haitians being offended by that tbh
just looks like a carnivalesque tradition in action to me

(i havent followed the thread so dont know about Bennet or any of that - will go back and read it a bit later)

 

[ouchmonkey]

I kind of agree Ska, but like grinder says - it isn't that far from blacking up it really does strike me as minstrelsy.
but I doubt they do it out of ill will, which is why I think they're stupid.
it's racism of the order of your mum not realising you shouldn't say coloured any more
but they ought to know better...

 

[ska invita]

It's widely believed that Bennett pretended to be various African noise acts on the Extreme Music From Africa album which is sort of a pre-Cut Hands effort.

this isnt right for sure, in particular the text:

Africa - the dark continent of the tyrants, the beautiful girls, the bizarre rituals, the tropical fruits, the pygmies, the guns, the mercenaries, the tribal wars, the unusual diseases, the abject poverty, the sumptuous riches, the widespread executions, the praetorian colonialists, the exotic wildlife - and the music.

doesnt need explaining whats wrong with that, even though its probably vaguely post-modern irony or something

the footage of Goat live i see little problem with - at a glance its just a cross cultural mishmash dress up - theyre acting as kitchy swedish voodooists . Maybe im being insensitive to the voodoo tradition here -im really not sure.

The montage video is a bit trickier for sure...hmm i dont know. I know if i was in the band i wouldnt feel comfortable about it so i guess thats some sort of test. Interesting this...the fact they're swedish adds a different dimension to it too.

As to coloured, i think people of colour is PC, - such as this event organised by 'activists of colour' - though i guess coloured isnt, becasue of the history of the word. Context is everything.

As an aside im reading a book about hendrix at the moment and i'm totally shocked by the racist language used by music journalists and fellow rock musicians in that era (68-72) - even Noel and Mitch. Reading books like absolute beginners set in the 50s is one thing, but for Jimi's bandmates to be going on like that...

The more i think about it the more I can see what you mean about Goat, but my first impression is that its done very innocently and playfully, and if they really are from Korpilombolo (the arctic circle good as), then it adds to their dislocation from cultural sensitivities.

 

[ska invita]

i think another reason why my first instinct was to be defensive to the dressing up aspect is that i wish there was more dressing up/mask wearing/face paint (not minstrelism)/escapism in our culture full stop. Its a missing part of modern life and a very innate one. Europe has lost a lot of it probably because of the romans/christians. In the UK all we've got left are some Morris dancers and some neo-pagan (recreation society) types - and good on them all for doing that. I imagine Goat are acting on that impulse to have a go at that, but maybe doing it a bit clumsily, but i think in the right spirit.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Ah no, I just discovered Goat (hence searching and finding this thread) - don't tell me they're racialists

 

[frogwoman]

for fuck's sake, a band i sometimes listen to, their new album is called "the final electro solution". they're not nazis, and their lyrics aren't nazi (from what i've listened to of their stuff) and i've just been listening to some of it and it's quite good and the content of the lyrics from the songs i've listened to aren't nazi.

but why the fuck do industrial bands feel the need to do this when they're not actually nazis? don't they know it's just going to put people off listening to them?

 

[DotCommunist]

for fuck's sake, a band i sometimes listen to, their new album is called "the final electro solution". they're not nazis, and their lyrics aren't nazi (from what i've listened to of their stuff) and i've just been listening to some of it and it's quite good and the content of the lyrics from the songs i've listened to aren't nazi.

but why the fuck do industrial bands feel the need to do this when they're not actually nazis? don't they know it's just going to put people off listening to them?

weimar decadence/nazi chic


possibly crossover with the fetish scene.

I can always tell when you've got control of the youtubes lol, I'm upstairs having a slash and the I hear what sounds like a factory blowing up

 

[frogwoman]

 

[ouchmonkey]

on a different, and baffling, tip i've recently been made aware of this lot
Blackhouse


who are a christian version of Whitehouse
power electronics + jesus lyrics

 

[frogwoman]

weimar decadence/nazi chic


possibly crossover with the fetish scene.

I can always tell when you've got control of the youtubes lol, I'm upstairs having a slash and the I hear what sounds like a factory blowing up

the worst one for that is Nachtmahr who I think are actually fash

and their music is shit

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

But nonetheless there does seem to be a few fans who seem quite attracted to the ideas of the far right because of the music's whole "image" .

It's sort of a chicken and egg thing. I think that the embracing of ideas like lynching blacks, or sending jews to madagascar forms first, and the music comes later.

It would take a particularly weak-willed sap to decide that non whites etc are inferior, based upon listening to some songs, and staring at an album cover.

I don't think there's anything inherent in the design of a swastika that causes people who look at it to conclude that Naziism is the way of the future.

 

[dilute micro]

It would take a particularly weak-willed sap to decide that non whites etc are inferior, based upon listening to some songs, and staring at an album cover.

You know advertisements are carefully engineered to make people feel superior over people that don't want to buy a particular product. You're Canadian and that means you drink Moosehead. People that don't drink Moosehead know what the fuck they're doing. But that doesn't meant that Moosehead doesn't advertise their beer.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

Sorry can't be arsed to read this whole thread, was largely in favour of the boycott of the sol invictus last year. I've seen Bennett lecture about what he does. I think it's mostly involved in the 'performance' a kind of a sacred space.

Just discovering Haus Arafna of late. Alot of their back catalogue seems very good. When listening to some of the minimal stuff it does make a mockery of the blandness and lack inventiveness of all those countless singer/songwriters who strum away.

 

[butchersapron]

Named after a hospital where a nazi doctor carried out t-4 killings of disabled children and those deemed physically not worthy of life. He personally killed about 2 500 and organised many more. Sound like lovely people.

 

[maya]

Ah no, I just discovered Goat (hence searching and finding this thread) - don't tell me they're racialists

They called their record 'World Music' have a ridiculous back story about
swedish voodoo traditions and dress up in cod tribal gear and masks...
but i can't shake the feeling they aren't actually racist, just stupid.

I think they're probably incredibly naive and a bit sheltered from the wider world up there, both culturally and re: privilege. I doubt they're being consciously racist. And seeing everything through a different cultural lens where they don't see these signifiers- My 2p is that they're some post-postmodern art school middle class types who think they can just pick and mix whatever cultural content and make some hypermodern 'look'/image, without really reflecting on their own privilege.

(BTW Sweden is a pretty multicultural country as far as scandinavia is concerned- I'm sure the majority of swedes would be horrified to be seen as racist...)

 

[xslavearcx]

so whats more fascist then? blackmetal or industrial??

 

[TruXta]

Now now.

 

[Pingu]

One of the best bands i've ever seen live!

absolutely fucking awesome live. iirc links was their response to being accused of having right wing politics.

they have consisantly denied any Nazi sympathies and , again iirc, have said if anything they have left\socialist leanings politics wise

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You know advertisements are carefully engineered to make people feel superior over people that don't want to buy a particular product. You're Canadian and that means you drink Moosehead. People that don't drink Moosehead know what the fuck they're doing. But that doesn't meant that Moosehead doesn't advertise their beer.

Logic fail: I haven't drank a moosehead beer in 30 years. Don't think I ever bought any - just at parties etc.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You know advertisements are carefully engineered to make people feel superior.

I think they're engineered to do a number of things, including making people feel good about themselves; make them think that they are living a healthy lifestyle, make them feel sexy/desirable. Maybe status symbol product advertising is meant to make people feel superior, like the buyers of BMWs, or Cristal.

 

[dilute micro]

Logic fail: I haven't drank a moosehead beer in 30 years. Don't think I ever bought any - just at parties etc.

But you did drink it. /captsparrow

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

But you did drink it. /captsparrow

You're Canadian and that means you drink Moosehead

I have and stopped, but continue to be Canadian.