Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[krtek a houby]

there are for me many similarities and crossovers between the way in which anti-immigrant bollocks is pushed and the way in which incel / toxic masculinity nonsense is pushed. but among the difficulties we have is that 'the left' has proved poor in using the internet and social media in the way that jihadis and fascists have - this is not a call to emulate them, but to try something different. should we as people on 'the left' continue as we are, where there are few innovative ideas about pushing ideas over the internet? or perhaps try what some people have already done and speak to people face to face - some anarchists have tried speaking to people at syl rallies, and report mixed results.

i don't have a solution for this but i think new things need to be tried, not in isolation but in concert. every year you see swp posters which clearly take their inspiration from punk images of the 1970s. have there really been no new ideas in political communication since jamie reid?

Speaking to people face to face does get mixed results, it depends on the environment and how hostile or not it is. An example (albeit not in the UK) but recently speaking with far right Americans in both Tokyo and Dublin on neutral ground (the pub) where the atmosphere is uplifting.

One Texan man said that he could see where I was coming from. Another man (Texan also!) could only see to the end of his big hat. In both cases, both men were the instigators of the conversation - both loudly made statements that could be deemed as offensive.

In some ways, it was more useful than the many "discussions" have had with fash online over the years which have left me exhausted. Dunno if it did any good, of course.

Obviously the atmosphere would be quite different at rallies and dangerous at flashpoints.

And would question the use of words like "axiom" in such cases...

 

[kabbes]

I would be very interested to find out if there are exceptions to this rule, allowing for disabilities. But I don’t agree with removing that propaganda ‘weapon’ is that’s the only reason for doing it.
It’s not speech they’re testing though, but reading. Will now have a google to find out if the test can be taken in other ways.

I’d go further, and suggesting that the people they are favouring are those with the cultural capital needed to be comfortable with the idea of studying for and passing written tests. It’s a form of social engineering that makes me very uncomfortable indeed.

 

[Spymaster]

But I don’t agree with removing that propaganda ‘weapon’ ...

Why not?

 

[Orang Utan]

I would be very interested to find out if there are exceptions to this rule, allowing for disabilities. But I don’t agree with removing that propaganda ‘weapon’ is that’s the only reason for doing it.
It’s not speech they’re testing though, but reading. Will now have a google to find out if the test can be taken in other ways.

From Who needs to take the test - Citizenship - lifeintheuk.net.
If you have a ‘long-standing, permanent’ physical or mental health condition you may be exempt. This condition must prevent you from studying for or taking the test permanently. To be exempt you must:

• be suffering from a long-term illness or disability that severely restricts your mobility and ability to attend language classes; or
• have a mental impairment which means that you are unable to learn another language.

You will have to provide evidence from a medical practitioner to confirm this disability.

Conditions such as stress and depression are not grounds for exemption. There are also no exemptions on the grounds of illiteracy.

If you have a visual or hearing impairment then this will not necessarily exempt you from the test. Physical conditions like this are reviewed on a case-by-case basis. Most test centres are well equipped to assist people with such disabilities. Check with your local test centre to see if they can accommodate you. If they can not, then contact the Home Office for guidance on completing your application for settlement or citizenship

 

[Orang Utan]

Why not?

It’s not good enough to be appeasing ignorance. The government should not be pandering to such views, but trying to change them.

 

[kabbes]

But I'm scared of social change, you have to understand it's not really my fault

I think you’re uncomfortable with the idea of other people having reasons for things that you don’t think are reasonable. You find it easier to think of those people as being unreasoned.

This might help: you don’t have to agree with their reasons just because you recognise that they have them. It’s okay to strongly fight against people acting in ways that you find unreasonable, regardless of however they feel about it. Recognising that other humans are reasoned actors does not entail leaving them to whatever behaviour their reasons take them to. The opposite, in fact — it gives you better tools to fight them with.

 

[krtek a houby]

In fairness it was the caricature being labelled 'moronic' but that was just kabbes lashing out because he's very well-read and highly qualified, and doesn't like not being taken seriously.

I can be moronic though, I'm sure we all can. Hopefully not as moronic as rioters trying to burn down a hostel with people inside.

Being well read and highly qualified doesn't mean shit if you can't communicate without sounding like a lofty physicist mansplaining to the lowly mortals.

Of course there's a need for engagement and trying to build common ground and better understanding of the many factors that lead to unrest. Don't know anyone who would say otherwise.

Just don't think Professor Axiom is the person to do that.

 

[kabbes]

Oh, the irony

 

[mojo pixy]

tl;dr? what politicians say matters, especially in a context in which few people bother reading the news with anything more than cursory attention.

Absolutely, and it's clear this very minority obsession has been amplified for years by the right-wing press and a few far-right talking heads like farage, couched in terms like "I'm just a normal person telling it like it is", a sense of ex-imperial grievance has been twisted into fear of immigrants, generations of government and council neglect of communities up and down the country has festered into embedded, generational anger, and it all matters.

But I can only walk so far down the path of sympathy, because at the end of the day the racists and xenophobes are wrong. And at some point we need to stop wringing our hands and just say no pasaran, touch pas à mon pôte, no fucking more.

Anyway that seems, thankfully, to be happening - however the farages and others still making a living out of hate and fear, need to be ..... oh I don't know, I feel ... moronic ... in the face of this shit.

I wish I had answers but like most of us I have fear, desperation, disillusionment and anger. But morals, empathy, and choices of my own too. How does anyone promote that idea without a TV station, a tiktok feed, a youtube channel?

 

[mojo pixy]

I think you’re uncomfortable with the idea of other people having reasons for things that you don’t think are reasonable. You find it easier to think of those people as being unreasoned.

I think you're overstepping the boundaries of your expertise here. I think that understanding people's reasons for their hate and violence can be done without allowing those reasons to dictate my personal response to the hate and violence.

Or, in other words...

This might help: you don’t have to agree with their reasons just because you recognise that they have them. It’s okay to strongly fight against people acting in ways that you find unreasonable, regardless of however they feel about it. Recognising that other humans are reasoned actors does not entail leaving them to whatever behaviour their reasons take them to. The opposite, in fact — it gives you better tools to fight them with.

 

[Spymaster]

It’s not good enough to be appeasing ignorance. The government should not be pandering to such views, but trying to change them.

So, you think it’s completely unreasonable for British people to want new citizens to speak basic English?

 

[maomao]

No. It’s a moronic caricature that helps nothing and nobody.

It's also reframing analysis as 'blame' and 'excuses' which is what the right do all the time.

 

[kabbes]

So, you think it’s completely unreasonable for British people to want new citizens to speak basic English?

There’s an achingly big gap, though, between being able to speak (and even being proficient in speaking) a language and being competent at taking tests. These are different skills.

 

[Pickman's model]

And would question the use of words like "axiom" in such cases...

 

[mojo pixy]

It's also reframing analysis as 'blame' and 'excuses' which is what the right do all the time.

It's what everyone does, right, left, everyone. And it's OK to blame the people doing something terrible for the terrible thing they did. There may be reasons for doing something, but in the end someone still has to choose to do the thing.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

So, you think it’s completely unreasonable for British people to want new citizens to speak basic English?

I'll just ask my Welsh mate his opinion on this.

 

[Orang Utan]

So, you think it’s completely unreasonable for British people to want new citizens to speak basic English?

No, but I don’t think it should necessarily be a requirement

 

[krtek a houby]

There’s an achingly big gap, though, between being able to speak (and even being proficient in speaking) a language and being competent at taking tests. These are different skills.

There's also a big gap in being able to speak the language and being able to communicate.

You couch your ideas and suggestions in fancy words and suchlike, for example, instead of using everyday language.

Not everyone is educated and erudite to your level.

 

[Spymaster]

No, but I don’t think it should necessarily be a requirement

Why not?

We're not talking about all immigrants here. We're talking specifically about those who have expressed a serious desire to go much further and become British citizens.

 

[toblerone3]

This is a large part of why open borders is nonsense. It ignores the cultural aspects/fears. It's all very well decrying these fears as unfounded and their holders as gammons or racists, but that doesn't make them less real.

What is this thing called open borders which you are decrying as nonsense? Are you not just reducing open borders to some absurd absolutist position in order to dismiss it. Reductio ad absurdum. To do it the other way. People are fearful and racist close the borders!

 

[chilango]

So, you think it’s completely unreasonable for British people to want new citizens to speak basic English?

...is it reasonable for Welsh people to want new residents to speak basic Welsh?

Should scousers moving to Rhyl have to pass a Welsh test?

 

[Pickman's model]

Why not?

We're not talking about all immigrants here. We're talking specifically about those who have expressed a serious desire to go much further and become British citizens.

if they want to learn the only de jure official language of the uk they should be learning welsh

 

[Pickman's model]

...is it reasonable for Welsh people to want new residents to speak basic Welsh?

Should scousers moving to Rhyl have to pass a Welsh test?

the first and most important is knowing who should, and who should not, enter a door labelled dynion

 

[Poot]

Why not?

We're not talking about all immigrants here. We're talking specifically about those who have expressed a serious desire to go much further and become British citizens.

My mate's husband is Turkish. Speaks great English. Always joking. Would do anything for anyone, honestly, he's a big lad, a gentle giant and you'd trust him with your life. But he's useless at written English. And Turkish, apparently. Still an excellent welder, engineer, husband and dad. They recently said 'fuck this shit' and went to live in Turkey. Her elderly parents have lost her, and R (who they love like a son) and their only grandkids and are completely bereft. Her mum's very disabled. It doesn't just affect one person. He's just shit at written exams. Possibly spoken ones too, tbh. And that's okay.

 

[Spymaster]

My mate's husband is Turkish. Speaks great English. Always joking. Would do anything for anyone, honestly, he's a big lad, a gentle giant and you'd trust him with your life. But he's useless at written English. And Turkish, apparently. Still an excellent welder, engineer, husband and dad. They recently said 'fuck this shit' and went to live in Turkey. Her elderly parents have lost her, and R (who they love like a son) and their only grandkids and are completely bereft. Her mum's very disabled. It doesn't just affect one person. He's just shit at written exams. Possibly spoken ones too, tbh. And that's okay.

It's not a written exam. It's multiple choice. All they have to do is tick a box.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's not a written exam. It's multiple choice. All they have to do is tick a box.

you know that all the questions would be in written english, don't you?

 

[Orang Utan]

Why not?

We're not talking about all immigrants here. We're talking specifically about those who have expressed a serious desire to go much further and become British citizens.

There are plenty of people born in this country who don’t speak English but contribute to the British culture and economy, yet we require newcomers who require the security of citizenship to do so. Many languages are spoken in the UK. Do only those who speak English contribute to the British economy and culture?

 

[Spymaster]

...is it reasonable for Welsh people to want new residents to speak basic Welsh?

That would be up to the Welsh, if and when they get to issue passports. At the moment, a knowledge of Welsh or Scottish Gaelic is sufficient to meet the UK language requirements for citizenship.

 

[Spymaster]

There are plenty of people born in this country who don’t speak English but contribute to the British culture and economy, yet we require newcomers who require the security of citizenship to do so. Many languages are spoken in the UK. Do only those who speak English contribute to the British economy and culture?

No. But you are addressing a different issue here.

I want to address one of the concerns of people who are considering voting Reform, and take away a perceived reason for them to do so. You want to tell them their concerns are bollocks, so fuck off.

 

[maomao]

...is it reasonable for Welsh people to want new residents to speak basic Welsh?

Should scousers moving to Rhyl have to pass a Welsh test?

The life in the UK test can be taken in Welsh or Scottish Gaelic

Brazilian takes Welsh test to become British citizen

Dr Rodolfo Piskorski becomes the first person to take a Welsh language citizenship exam.

www.bbc.co.uk

They were going to do it in Ulster Scots too but all the answers were NO!