Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[krtek a houby]

The life in the UK test can be taken in Welsh or Scottish Gaelic

Brazilian takes Welsh test to become British citizen

Dr Rodolfo Piskorski becomes the first person to take a Welsh language citizenship exam.

www.bbc.co.uk

They were going to do it in Ulster Scots too but all the answers were NO!

Especially in Paisley

 

[Orang Utan]

No. But you are addressing a different issue here.

I want to address one of the concerns of people who are considering voting Reform, and take away a perceived reason for them to do so. You want to tell them their concerns are bollocks, so fuck off.

I want to persuade them otherwise, rather than pandering to prejudice.
Not sure how that warrants a fuck off.

 

[nightowl]

The argument I find difficult to counter with the small boats situation is "they're already in a safe country before they head here and have possibly travelled through several other safe countries before leaving France". I know that could apply to other European countries which people are trying to get to but what is the counter argument?

 

[kalidarkone]

I'm concerned that we're failing to find enough British people to fill the needed vacancies in social care. I think it's a shame we're importing people for that; not only for what it says about us as a nation and our collective attitude towards our elderly and others who get cared for, as well as a widespread snobbery about work we're willing to do / have our kids do; but also because it denudes the care systems of poorer countries.

I think that, just as with a lot of your points, the real problem isn't immigration or immigrants, but the cumulative and continuing political choices of those in power who seem averse to investing in the uk, its infrastructure and its people.

I agree with you regarding the shortage of staffing in health and social care.

I'm guessing that the strategy of opening up the vacancies to overseas health care staff, rather then making health and social care degree courses free again and affordable to British people might be because overseas nurses are more likely to put up with low wages and shitty terms and conditions because relatively it is better here.

It is quite astounding the personal sacrifices that the overseas nurses go through in order to come to the UK and support their families back home.....like it actually fucking breaks my heart.

Also the ime the overseas nurses are way more hard working , efficient and better value for money.

 

[Spymaster]

I want to persuade them otherwise ...

And how has that gone for you?

The left has never been more politically irrelevant than they are now, have achieved nothing for decades, the current Labour government is more right than some Tory ones, and the most successful politician in the country is Nigel Farage, who may well be the next PM.

 

[maomao]

The argument I find difficult to counter with the small boats situation is "they're already in a safe country before they head here and have possibly travelled through several other safe countries before leaving France". I know that could apply to other European countries which people are trying to get to but what is the counter argument?

The lack of employment rights and developed grey and black economies make the UK a more livable place for people who have run away from war, famine and poverty but don't have obvious asylum claims.

 

[maomao]

Also the ime the overseas nurses are way more hard working , efficient and better value for money.

As someone whose met a lot of nurses over the last four years, I've rarely met any from any background who weren't absolutely brilliant in every respect.

 

[Red Cat]

Being well read and highly qualified doesn't mean shit if you can't communicate without sounding like a lofty physicist mansplaining to the lowly mortals.

Of course there's a need for engagement and trying to build common ground and better understanding of the many factors that lead to unrest. Don't know anyone who would say otherwise.

Just don't think Professor Axiom is the person to do that.

This kind of argument comes up quite a bit here, there’s nothing being said that isn't understandable, it’s just academic speak. Why not speak like that here? It’s kabbes style, I don’t think he’s going to change.

I’m really interested in the history and politics of parenting, but I don’t speak to other parents in this way irl. I don’t see the point of forums if you’re just repeating what you do anyway, might as well just talk to people out there * shudders*

 

[krtek a houby]

This kind of argument comes up quite a bit here, there’s nothing being said that isn't understandable, it’s just academic speak. Why not speak like that here? It’s kabbes style, I don’t think he’s going to change.

I’m really interested in the history and politics of parenting, but I don’t speak to other parents in this way irl. I don’t see the point of forums if you’re just repeating what you do anyway, might as well just talk to people out there * shudders*

Fair enough.

Some of us might struggle to get academic language. Or, maybe that's just my difficulty.

 

[Red Cat]

People here are either self or university educated, if you’re not familiar with an idea, look it up.

So I just googled reasoned actors psychology, and there’s a wiki entry to explain the theory.

 

[newme]

...is it reasonable for Welsh people to want new residents to speak basic Welsh?

Should scousers moving to Rhyl have to pass a Welsh test?

I lived with someone who was a native welsh speaker, her son went off to a welsh only speaking school in the mountains. Outside of that very little was ever spoken in welsh, few phrases, nos da, cwtch etc. Which was similar to the non native speakers. English is just the common language and its everywhere, means almost every EU country ends up learning it and we learn just about enough to pass the test and then forget it all, usually for somewhere with limited usage. German was no use to me at all in Germany or Austria, other than making it look like I was less of an ignorant tourist hopefully. Seemed Spanish would be more useful.

 

[Orang Utan]

And how has that gone for you?

The left has never been more politically irrelevant than they are now, have achieved nothing for decades, the current Labour government is more right than some Tory ones, and the most successful politician in the country is Nigel Farage, who may well be the next PM.

And how has the citizenship test worked to reassure those folk with their supposed legitimate concerns?

 

[danny la rouge]

And how has that gone for you?

The left has never been more politically irrelevant than they are now, have achieved nothing for decades, the current Labour government is more right than some Tory ones, and the most successful politician in the country is Nigel Farage, who may well be the next PM.

I agree with all of that. Which makes me scared, angry, depressed, and combative.

 

[Spymaster]

And how has the citizenship test worked to reassure those folk with their supposed legitimate concerns?

Firstly by indicating that their concerns about language are being listened to. It's small things like that that cumulatively will make a difference to some people. And it's not a big thing. Most countries have similar tests.

Imagine scrapping the requirement for the citizenship test. How do you think that would play-out politically, right now?

 

[Orang Utan]

Firstly by indicating that their concerns about language are being listened to. It's small things like that that cumulatively will make a difference to some people. And it's not a big thing. Most countries have similar tests.

Imagine scrapping the requirement for the citizenship test. How do you think that would play-out politically, right now?

Not very well, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be making efforts to change people’s misconceptions and prejudices.

 

[Sue]

It's a sad day when Spymaster is talking more sense than most other people on this thread.

(Not that I agree with everything he's saying and Farage isn't going to be the next PM.)

 

[Spymaster]

Not very well, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be making efforts to change people’s misconceptions and prejudices.

So again; you've had decades to do that and the country is politically further right than it's ever been.

What efforts are you now making to change people's misconceptions and prejudices?

 

[Poot]

It's a sad day when Spymaster is talking more sense than most other people on this thread.

(Not that I agree with everything he's saying and Farage isn't going to be the next PM.)

Innit. It's infuriating. Not that others haven't said correct things, just that this stupid exam could easily become a political football.

I suppose some things are true regardless of your feelings on the matter.

 

[Orang Utan]

So again; you've had decades to do that and the country is politically further right than it's ever been.

What efforts are you now making to change people's misconceptions and prejudices?

Wasn’t aware it was my sole personal responsibility to change people’s minds, but I can only do my best, with certain constraints, to talk to people. I’m grateful that I don’t have to do much in my personal life, but I do my best at work. Weird line of questioning though. What do you expect me to say?

 

[Spymaster]

Wasn’t aware it was my sole personal responsibility to change people’s minds, but I can only do my best, with certain constraints, to talk to people. I’m grateful that I don’t have to do much in my personal life, but I do my best at work. Weird line of questioning though. What do you expect me to say?

I don't really expect you to say anything and you know that nobody thinks it's your sole responsibility to do anything.

This line of questioning originated with you effectively saying that the test was bollocks and me disagreeing with you and telling you why.

What you do with that is down to you.

 

[Orang Utan]

It’s a stupid diversion from addressing the real issues. Perhaps we can agree on that

 

[Spymaster]

It’s a stupid diversion from addressing the real issues. Perhaps we can agree on that

No, I don't.

What do you think the "real issues" are, if this isn't absolutely part of them?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Those views really aren't uncommon. There are far more people with views like that, or versions of them, than there are outright racists.

Yes. There are millions of the former, probably a few thousand of the latter. Lumping the two together - and being seen to do so - merely pushes the bigger group towards the smaller group giving it confidence, oxygen, a massive pool of potential recruits and firmly places 'the left' into the territory of the 'other' or the enemy in the eyes of the 'grey' as you call them.

The people we are talking about already see the left as indivisible from the middle class/the politicians. They see how we talk about them. They see, too often, class hatred and sneering masquerading as political analysis/anti fascism. They know they are called gammon/thick scum. Look, they robbed a Greggs... They know that that for their generation there is no hope for respite from the social and economic collapse taking place around them. They have worked out that they do not have any political or industrial representation and neither did their parents.

Concluding that they might as well throw their lot in with the fash isn't a massive step once those points are reached.

For us, any effective strategy has to involve isolating the smaller group, and beating them and being seen to beat them on the streets, in the battle of ideas and also contesting the territory where the bigger group are. But it also involves engaging seriously and respectfully with the much bigger group. Listening to their concerns and engaging with them is going to be a better strategy than calling them racists and 'drawing lines'.

I honestly think that many on the left don't actually get where the issue lies because they don't engage with people outside of their own political structures.

Spot on. That has been the case for years. We can see it on this thread.

The more pressing concern I have is that rather than acknowledge the fact there seems to be a doubling down online, an increased desire for purity and a view that only engaging with others who are like us is some form of praxis.

I do think social media plays an important and disastrous role in a) in facilitating this retreat for 'activists' from the real world with all of its contingencies and into a space of 'hot takes' and pat answers and b) into bubbles where people are essentially talking to themselves.

Now, I'm getting depressed as well......

 

[NoXion]

...is it reasonable for Welsh people to want new residents to speak basic Welsh?

Should scousers moving to Rhyl have to pass a Welsh test?

I don't know what the situation is like now, but when my family moved from London to north Wales when I was a child, I had to start taking Welsh lessons at school. No citizenship tests were required, but it seems clear that there at least was an expectation that we should learn the language.

 

[Orang Utan]

No, I don't.

What do you think the "real issues" are, if this isn't absolutely part of them?

This is what this thread and a couple of other recent threads are discussing!

 

[SpookyFrank]

The argument I find difficult to counter with the small boats situation is "they're already in a safe country before they head here and have possibly travelled through several other safe countries before leaving France". I know that could apply to other European countries which people are trying to get to but what is the counter argument?

It's not reasonable to expect Spain, Italy and Greece to accept every refugee from everywhere just because of where they are geographically?

Also many people may have relatives here, there may be existing communities of people who share their language/culture here.

And, more fundamentally, people should have the right to live wherever the fuck they like. Being born here isn't an achievement, it's not a reward for any talent or strength of character.

 

[Orang Utan]

Soon none of this will matter as much as the need for people to live somewhere not on fire or under water comes to trump all else.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Imagine scrapping the requirement for the citizenship test. How do you think that would play-out politically, right now?

I think people who angry about everything anyway would be very angry about it, but 95% of the population wouldn't give a shit.

 

[Spymaster]

For us, any effective strategy has to involve isolating the smaller group, and beating them and being seen to beat them on the streets, in the battle of ideas and also contesting the territory where the bigger group are. But it also involves engaging seriously and respectfully with the much bigger group. Listening to their concerns and engaging with them is going to be a better strategy than calling them racists and 'drawing lines'.

The more pressing concern I have is that rather than acknowledge the fact there seems to be a doubling down online, an increased desire for purity and a view that only engaging with others who are like us is some form of praxis.

I really don't think there's a need to be too depressed though because there's clear opportunity here. It'll be way easier to convince marginals that Reform is not the way forward than it will be to change a load of right-wingers to moderates in 10 years time. And there are probably a few million of them.

It'll take some concessions though and many of those will need to come from the people whose idea of challenging prejudice is to shout "racists" at everyone with the slightest concerns about immigration.

 

[danny la rouge]

Smokeandsteam ’s post 293 is very important. Just want to echo the snobbery point. The memes after the pogroms were mainly not anti racist at all. They were snobby and sneery and anti “underclass”.

I probably fell into it a bit too, because I thought the Lush bath bomb episode was funny.

But taking the piss out of people spelling “our” as “are”? Please don’t do that. I have a very good friend and comrade with good politics who makes that mistake. I’m personally dyslexic and rely heavily on spellcheck. It doesn’t make either of us racist. Lots of people fall through educational cracks. The education system is not one size fits all. I worked in it. I know. And the people it doesn’t fit know who they are very early on. Sneering about them doesn’t help.

and Farage isn't going to be the next PM.)

The theory is that Starmer has one term, and a realigned right take power next, with Farage or someone like him, able to carry the disenfranchised Reform voters, as leader. It’s not far fetched. It’s likely.

And it’s Hitler’s rise to power repeated as farce.