I think sheer numbers of people migrating to survive may end up making a mockery of the notion of borders. Perhaps I am being ‘optimistic’ about that, but the other possibilities are too horrific to contemplate right now
I know this phrase, “open borders”, has somehow come into the conversation. But I don’t think anyone is actually advocating something called that. What I’m saying is that this is a planet. And planetary stresses will mean population movement. And big stressors have started. And they’re getting bigger.
Might concentrate minds to think about why those economic pushes and pulls exist in the first place. To single out the same country that Starmer singled out as he fanned the racist flames, why is it ok to expect a Bangladeshi woman to make our clothes for us in Bangladesh for £15 a week wages but not ok to think that maybe she could come here to live and work instead?
I’ve addressed one of Edie ‘s posts. (And she asked some good questions and raised some good points). I don’t think it’s the one you’re referring to here. This is a fast moving thread, and composing posts that in any way address questions raised mean I’m probably missing a lot of posts.
Yeah, but that’s part of the problem. Phrases mean different things to different people. When I hear “20 min neighbourhoods” I think “yes, that can’t come soon enough, properly planned for and funded”, but others hear “government clamp down on liberty”. I don’t know how we address that. I’m not sure my arms can reach far enough down a lot of these rabbit holes.
Last I checked, I wasn't standing for election. I'll make the case for what I think is right. That it wouldn't win an election right now is beside the point.
I disagree. Giving people a radically different take on an issue from the one they normally hear may not win them over to your position, but it may place different ideas in their heads, it may give them cause to think about things from a different perspective.
Yup. Me too.
Yeah I've lived as a migrant since 1997. Not for economics but because I love France and just wanted to live there. Why I ended up in Estonia after 10 years in France is a story for another time
But I raise no eyebrows because I look like them.
I'd rather talk about 'people' than 'voters'. As I said, I'm not standing for election. If people don't give a shit about the plight of the people who make their cheap clothes for them, that reflects badly on them.
Too wide a concept. “The left”. Could mean almost anything. Also, I agree the left isn’t strong, isn’t organised, and doesn’t have any meaningful conversation with the working class. Which depresses me. But you can’t have it both ways. The left can’t both not exist and be actively to blame.
Bosses push wages down. It’s not difficult.
I think you have things the wrong way round.
You were arguing that expecting an understanding of English in the citizenship tests would would help address rascist arguments about them not speaking English.
When eg Labour talks about immigration in terms that make it clear that the 'concerns' are valid, you get a so-called overton window through which, on mainstream political discussions such as Question Time, it is taken as read that there is 'an immigration problem' that comprises, essentially, too many people coming over here from over there.
Appreciate you sharing all this. I'd be interested to know if you managed to persuade Dave that NF was racist but don't feel like you need to share if you cba.There’s been a lot of stuff on this thread about “legitimate” concerns, which I don’t think anyone has actually mentioned. It’s just been “concerns”. When I used to get the shit kicked out of me by racists, the legitimacy of their concerns was a matter of supreme indifference.
I’m reticent to post this but I’ve been thinking about it all day, and I’ve posted about my own experiences before and I don’t want anyone to think that I feel my views are shared by other people of colour. We DON'T all see it the same way and my views have no more weight than anyone else’s. However …
I was born in London, but grew up in the 70s and 80s in a provincial shit-hole called Bracknell.
Mine was one of half a dozen non-white families in a town of about 30,000 people, many of whom seemed to have NF posters in their windows whenever elections were on, even on the “posh” council estates. Dad was a first generation immigrant Indian, and my plight wasn’t aided by the fact that mum was a very vocal, bi-polar, Irish Republican, whose idea of challenging racism was to stop taking her meds, strip naked in pubs, and get sectioned. I was used to getting regularly “paki-bashed” but mum’s antics, whilst the IRA was blowing the shit out of London, really didn’t help. I became the “Paddy Paki” through my teens with a massive target on my arse!
I got through that with the help of a handful of white mates who today would be considered by many on this thread to be racists themselves.
I’ve known my best mate “Dave” (not his real name) for 52 years and we do an annual holiday together. This year we were In Malta, in June, when the Reform shit was in the news and Dave said “I reckon that Nigel Farage might be worth a vote”. This is a bloke who physically got involved with protecting me from racist violence and stood shoulder to shoulder with me, in proper hard-core punch-ups, many times over the years. I told him that I was surprised that he’d ever vote for a racist, and Dave said to me, genuinely, “do you think he’s a racist then?”
Dave is a project manager (site agent) on building sites. He’s currently got a downer on Latvians and Lithuanians, who he says he had to employ because there’s a mafia thing going on, and they are shit at onsite safety. He voted for Brexit, in the hope that more Brits would get jobs instead of non-Brits.
He was my Indian dad’s second son, and carried the old man’s coffin into the crem with me.
Dave and his ilk are the people we need to be talking to. Not the likes of John Honey et al. Fuck them. They’re always going to be racist cunts who should be battered to death by the police/lefties/anyone else.
Others are worth engaging with.
Putting those “fringe players” into the same group as violent scum racists, is hugely counterproductive. Telling them, or anyone else, that their concerns are worthless and that they’re racist cunts, just drives them further right.
THESE are the people we should be engaging. Not the handful of silly wankers who kick-off once every ten years. They’re just cunts who can be dealt with by the wonderful communal actions we’ve seen over the last couple of weeks (as well as some robust policing).
The UK is NOT a racist country. By comparison to what it was 40 or 50 years ago we have made significant forward strides but there are many miles to cross still.
Don't get too down on this, Pilch.
We're going forwards, not backwards
What was the effect of introducing them in the first place? What has been the effect of changing the citizenship procedure from a relatively simple and inexpensive process that you could complete at a solicitor's office for a couple of hundred quid into a bloated process containing a bunch of hoops to jump through that costs more than two grand?
