Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Here you go, making up numbers again.
Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?
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Here you go, making up numbers again.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
I get that, but part of the problem is the message Starmer sent out by thanking the cops but not the people.
zedr
new but not *that* new
I'd worry that telling people that their 'ideas are dog shit and so are they' would itself positively reinforce their ideas and behaviour.
I see a lot of this in similar ways to cult deprogramming (horrible phrase but I can think of a better was to describe it). This doesn't mean accepting racist framings of situations, and it doesn't mean agreeing with them, but it does mean making them feel heard.
I think someone up thread wrote that we wouldn't do this with VAWG and I strongly disagree with that too. I think it's a huge role (esp of men) to talk to their peers and create a culture in which all forms of violence against women is not tolerated. I think exactly the same goes for (especially) white people and racism. There will be different tactics and strategies for different moments, sometimes its running people off the streets, but more often that not its about challenging and countering narratives and myths (as well as working towards better working conditions, secure housing etc). And the important thing there is to think about how to make those challenges successful, otherwise what's the point? If we are not employing a diversity of tactics to challenge racism we will be outflanked again and again.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think the state should be required to help people. I'm not into giving requirements to people from the state in that way, making them jump through hoops and setting them tests (and making them pay for the privilege).
So that's my answer. English classes provided by the state free of charge to anyone who is going through the citizenship process and wants them. No obligatory test, but a qualification offered at the end of the classes if they complete the course.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Id also suggest racism can be not always about fear but also about enjoyment.
It's not always a negative position.
Of the few people I now who are racist one in particular appears to relish it.
Some of what he used to come out with was nonsensical. Like supporting Brexit because their are to many Muslims in this country. And he wasn't stupid.
Seemed to me not fear of other but reveling in it.
It's akin to bullying. There is no real rational reason for it. Except the enjoyment gained.
Which is one reason why it's difficult to counter by rational explanations.
So this seems to make sense to me.
Open borders would suit industry, farming, social and healthcare and probably lots of other sectors because it would mean there was a consistent supply everywhere of people available to work for the lowest wages. That wouldn’t seem beneficial to me for those on minimum or low wage in countries with a higher standard of living such as the UK. And I don’t know what it would mean for a country to have a minimum wage- that surely wouldn’t be feasible. Or a welfare state- how would that even work?
So aside from the utopian ‘we’re all the human race’ kinda perspective it seems a dangerous idea to me?
Then Spymaster point that you’ll create massive political unrest and a drive towards the far right if you answer concerns about immigration with more/unlimited immigration. That needs to be considered.
So the ‘open borders’ thing, if I’m honest, seems nuts to me as anything other than a utopian left view, or utopian free-market/ free-migration right view- but maybe I’m wrong??
And if I’m not wrong- and it is nuts- how do we limit immigration. What rules do we as a nation apply? We seem to need workers across the spectrum- unskilled (eg fruit picking), skilled (eg care work, welders), professional (eg doctors, nurses). And in all areas of the UK. How do we meet that need with immigration? Should it be met with immigrants? Is there an alternative?
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
Well we could ensure that future doctors and nursers don't have to rack up huge amounts of debt to qualify.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I don’t think those are the two poles that exist.
I gave my answer here: Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?
To be clear: I don’t think the UK, on its own, “applying rules” will make a blind bit of difference to the migration of people. It might increase the misery of people forced to migrate. But it won’t stem the flow.
The drivers are global. The response has to be too.
Will that happen? I have my doubts. This is not a utopian view. It’s a pessimistic one.
None of this has anything to do with whether I think people would find it useful to learn the local language. (I do). Or whether I think there’s a master plan to bring “fighting aged men” to the UK to Islamise it. (I don’t). Or whether Open Borders is a policy that has any hope of winning support from the electorate or from government actors (it isn’t).
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Tbh given the state this country's in we should welcome with open arms people who want to move here despite the hostile environment and naked racism of the government
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
I'm not going to take any sides on this. It's merely an observation, but the people who are most vocal about immigrants not speaking English, seem to be the same people who go abroad and shout slowly in English at the 'foreigners' to make them understand.
Personally, I wouldn't even go on holiday without learning the basics of the local lingo. I think it's arrogant and disrespectful.
furluxor
snake with a claw
Here's a restatement of my question just for you: "does mass immigration motivate "bosses" to push wages down or not?". I was also expecting an opinion backed by sources. But maybe leave this one for someone else.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
When I went to Russia on holiday some years back there were basic Russian lessons for us ignorant foreigners
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You must have missed the sauce in Dogsauce
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
In a similar vein, there's a tad of irony in the English lecturing people on the need to speak English when a lot of the rest of the world speak English in their own countries purely because of us forcing it on them through Commonwealth and Empire.
Many countries have more than one major language. Educate people who want to speak the language, but don't make it some defining political point.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Immigration controls don't stop exploiting of labour
Or paying of poor wages
These people came here on visas.
Legally.
Yet still got exploited
Or paying of poor wages
Workers 'treated like slaves' on Scottish fishing boats
Dozens of workers from around the world may have been trafficked by a family-owned Scottish fishing firm.
www.google.com
These people came here on visas.
Legally.
Yet still got exploited
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I don't understand this argument that we need to discuss immigration controls this country needs.
We already have them in place.
Lots of rules/ different kinds of visas.
So what's the problem with present ones?
Didn't stop riots did it.
Brexit ended free movement of EU people. Kind of thought the idea was that this would end the arguments over immigration.
Clearly didn't.
What's utopian is the belief that further tinkering with the system will quell any future riots.
Somehow I don't think so.
We already have them in place.
Lots of rules/ different kinds of visas.
So what's the problem with present ones?
Didn't stop riots did it.
Brexit ended free movement of EU people. Kind of thought the idea was that this would end the arguments over immigration.
Clearly didn't.
What's utopian is the belief that further tinkering with the system will quell any future riots.
Somehow I don't think so.
Flavour
hang the bankers
I largely agree with everything danny la rouge and Smokeandsteam are saying, and with many of the things Spymaster is saying too.
I think it's a bit patronizing to expect people to just be totally fine with the amount of immigration there has been, as if very rapid and visible changes to communities were not something people might feel anxious about. As has been stated by others better, that "concern" does not necessarily mean full-on racism, but some unease about the rapidity of change in the area you live.
The numbers don't seem to have been mentioned once in this thread so far, so I'll do it:
In the 2001 UK Census there were 4.9 million foreigners, or 8.3% of the total population. In 2011 there were 8 million foreigners, or 12.7% of the total population: a 63% increase in the number over 10 years. And between 2011 and 2021, another 4.25 million foreigners arrived to live in the UK, making up what is 42% of the total number. Others have left due to Brexit and Covid, of course, but the current estimate is over 10 million people, or around 16% of the total population. It's a doubling of the foreign-born population in 20 years.
In Italy, by contrast, the number has grown significantly faster, quadrupling in the same 20-year time period from about 1.5 million to about 6 million foreigners (one of them being me) -- but the overall % is still much lower than the UK's, around 10%. It's very clear that this has driven people in massive numbers to the political parties that openly say "this is a problem", and not to the political parties that have largely ignored the question and pretended it had no impact on anything because they were, to all intents and purposes, the voice of Brussels, which loves free movement (among white people) insofar as it benefits capital, so wisely keeps its Frontex operations on the down-low and doesn't brag about it's (racist, and failed) attempt to keep non-EU immigrants out of Fortess Europe.
I think it's a bit patronizing to expect people to just be totally fine with the amount of immigration there has been, as if very rapid and visible changes to communities were not something people might feel anxious about. As has been stated by others better, that "concern" does not necessarily mean full-on racism, but some unease about the rapidity of change in the area you live.
The numbers don't seem to have been mentioned once in this thread so far, so I'll do it:
In the 2001 UK Census there were 4.9 million foreigners, or 8.3% of the total population. In 2011 there were 8 million foreigners, or 12.7% of the total population: a 63% increase in the number over 10 years. And between 2011 and 2021, another 4.25 million foreigners arrived to live in the UK, making up what is 42% of the total number. Others have left due to Brexit and Covid, of course, but the current estimate is over 10 million people, or around 16% of the total population. It's a doubling of the foreign-born population in 20 years.
In Italy, by contrast, the number has grown significantly faster, quadrupling in the same 20-year time period from about 1.5 million to about 6 million foreigners (one of them being me) -- but the overall % is still much lower than the UK's, around 10%. It's very clear that this has driven people in massive numbers to the political parties that openly say "this is a problem", and not to the political parties that have largely ignored the question and pretended it had no impact on anything because they were, to all intents and purposes, the voice of Brussels, which loves free movement (among white people) insofar as it benefits capital, so wisely keeps its Frontex operations on the down-low and doesn't brag about it's (racist, and failed) attempt to keep non-EU immigrants out of Fortess Europe.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
What I'm not clear on in these legitimate discussions about immigration is whether its about:
Cultural issues not economic. Immigration promotes rapid change in localities and this should be curbed/ slowed to a pace people are comfortable with.
Or
Immigration lowers wages and therefore should be limited to help the working class.
Cultural issues not economic. Immigration promotes rapid change in localities and this should be curbed/ slowed to a pace people are comfortable with.
Or
Immigration lowers wages and therefore should be limited to help the working class.
I posted this on another thread but, 16% of the UK's current population was born outside of the UK but in 2022 30% of all live births in England and Wales were to mothers born outside the UK and in London it was 66.5% (mine included). To paraphrase Homer Simpson, that may be the cause but then solution of all this immigration chatter!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You write very well for a two-year-old!
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Why? In what way do you think this will improve anti-immigration feeling?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Why? Because I think it is the right thing to do. I don't think people should have to pass exams to become citizens.
Would it improve anti-immigration feeling to remove the English test from the citizenship process (along with all the other crap)? Probably wouldn't make much of a difference either way, and most of the people who complain most loudly about immigration probably have little idea what is involved in the citizenship process anyway (that normally involves knowing immigrants who've been through it), but as planetgeli said, don't make it some defining political point.
Might such a move provoke fake outrage from the likes of the Mail or the Faragists? Probably. But being bothered by what they think has got us to here. More of the same doesn't seem like such a great idea even from that perspective, so why not just do the right thing?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
No. Not being bothered by what the Daves think and calling them "racist" and "dogshit" is what has got us to the stage where they're thinking about voting for Reform.
Keep doing what you think is "the right thing" and they'll just say "YOU'RE NOT LISTENING" and fuck off to the right. Many are already on their way.
And once again, what you are suggesting is exactly more of the same from the left. "Fuck what they think. This is what LBJ and SpookyFrank off the internet think".
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
No it's not. I'm not standing for election. I'm saying what I think is the right thing to do. And you haven't addressed the point that things like introducing absurd, expensive hoops into the citizenship process clearly don't have the effect of addressing people's concerns.
Your mate Dave isn't here. Please stop getting offended on his behalf. If he were here, I'd say exactly the same to him as I'm saying to you. I haven't called anyone a racist, btw, other than the racist thugs on the street, so fuck right off with that.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Oh, ffs. Is this where we are now? "I'm not standing for election", "stop getting offended". Seriously?
And what a childish last line. As if it's all about you!
The point of this thread was to discuss immigration concerns (it's in the title) and, presumably, how to address them.
All you've said so far is that you should keep doing what you've been doing and has proven utterly useless; tell people with immigration concerns that women in Bangladesh are unfairly treated and should be able to live in the UK; and give immigrants free English lessons and qualifications.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
So what's wrong with the present rules on immigration?
Happy Tree
maagilises metsas
I have permanent residence rights here but an Estonian passport is now more useful to me. I just need to pass 2 tests: B1 Estonian language and a citizenship knowledge test, in Estonian. I could do them fine right now, I just have to be arsed to get around to it. I don't think this process will cost me anything, apart from the fees for getting a new passport and ID card. Certainly under 100€ in total.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
There used to be funding for this kind of thing. My friend started teaching English ESOL paid through the Refugee Council.
The funding was gradually cut.
Can't have these people coming here and getting something for nothing.
These figures look very different though if you look at areas worst hit by the riots. There's a handy page on demographic changes by area here. In County Durham the number of people who idenitifed themselves as Muslim in 2021 was 0.6% up from 0.4% in 2011. Across the North East those of Asian descent make up 3.7% of the population compared to 2.9% ten years previously. In Hull the number of people from Asian descent has risen from 2.5% to 2.8%. The increase in the number of people from Eastern Europe has risen slightly higher here but nowehere near the figures you quotes. Polish people have gone from 1.9% to 3.4% of the population and Romanians from 0.1% to 1.3%.
These are not very rapid and visible changes. Most of the increase in population from those not born in the UK has been in London and larger cities, not the areas where the riots took place.
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