Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[Pickman's model]

That's an important point here. The places in the North East that saw riots - Hartlepool, Sunderland, Middlesbrough and to a lesser extent Durham - are among the whitest places in the country. Nothing happened in Newcastle despite being the largest population centre and being by far the most mixed part.

This tells me there was something else going on beyond a reaction to rapid changes in demographic makeup.

It seems to me the worst rioting was in the North East as well as Hull, Rotherham and obviously Southport.

Any idea what the ethnic makeup of Hull and Rotherham is like?

as lovecraft pointed out, the oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown. so it isn't really that surprising that places which have very few visible immigrants or asylum seekers are places which have seen some of the greatest violence. it's really difficult to imagine people in hackney or tottenham or toxteth or handsworth kicking off about immigration or asylum seekers as they have done in places with far fewer black and brown people.

.

 

[Gramsci]

Oh I see, is that the purpose of the minimum wage requirement. I don’t think I knew or had thought it through. I think I considered it to be so you paid enough tax to offset your cost to the state in other ways.

The last government was increasing the threshold. Whether that's gone through I'm not sure.

It was about reducing immigration. A deterrent.

Immigration changes include significant increases to minimum salary levels

James Cleverly, UK Home Secretary has announced his five point plan - predicting that these changes will reduce net migration by around 300,000.

www.carterthomas.co.uk

1. Salary threshold for Skilled Workers to increase
Businesses sponsoring overseas workers must meet a minimum annual salary threshold that is currently £26,200. The Government has announced that, from spring 2024, this will increase to £38,700 – an increase of 48% from the current rate. In addition, the ‘going rate’ thresholds, which must also be met by sponsors and which vary by profession, will be increased.

The article says there are exemptions in some sectors were exempt.

This is what I've been saying. This and previous governments keep doing theses things to assuage peoples supposed legitimate concerns. So what is the actual problem here? As it does not seem to work.

Also last government wanted to make it more difficult for people to bring their families over. Increasing the threshold on that.

 

[mojo pixy]

No one's excusing the violent racists, hotel burners, car jackers. Fuck those people.

But I thought this conversation was supposed to be about a bit more than racists are bad m'k.

Considering the Dave's of the world that Spymaster described. The messaging Smokeandsteam says may have milage in reaching and countering the likes of Reform. Where preaching or simply writing them off, leaves them to fall further to the right and another round of lefty handwringing saying oh why aren't these people interested.

I've already posted about the more general point of immigration, and my main point is that 'concerns about immigration' would still be a hugely minority issue if we'd had governments that looked after working class communities and funded council services properly and invested in infrastructure / employment / health / mental health / education etc rather than tendering it all out to the lowest bidder.

They aren't concerns about immigration, they're concerns about the country going to shit. The main argument that needs to happen nationally, IMO, is reframing this stupid back-and-forth and pointing the blame for the state of things where it belongs.

Till that happens we're just going to flail about in circles telling each other we're irrelevant and stupid. And 'Dave' will continue to believe it's immigrants responsible for his unhappinesses, rather than tory policies implemented by whoever blue / red .

 

[ska invita]

I'm relieved that after 30 years of daily and incessant anti-migrant establishment drum beat leading to back-to-back right-wing governments, Brexit, the hostile environment, deportations of people who have lived here their whole lives, imprisonment of asylum seekers, suicides, thousands of deaths from drowning, human rights court cases, draconian costs splitting up families, the relentless and cynical demonisation of migrants as a way into power for neo-fascist parties across Europe and now some good old fashioned pogroms and lynching FINALLY people are talking about legitimate concerns and "fear" about too many fucking foreigners in our fucking country. High time something was done before the great replacement. All the fault of "lefty-scum" (copyright spymaster) of course

 

[SpookyFrank]

That's an important point here. The places in the North East that saw riots - Hartlepool, Sunderland, Middlesbrough and to a lesser extent Durham - are among the whitest places in the country. Nothing happened in Newcastle despite being the largest population centre and being by far the most mixed part.

This tells me there was something else going on beyond a reaction to rapid changes in demographic makeup.

It seems to me the worst rioting was in the North East as well as Hull, Rotherham and obviously Southport.

Any idea what the ethnic makeup of Hull and Rotherham is like?

Hull the whitest big city in the UK last I checked.

E2a: Not true. Plymouth is more white than Hull. Plenty of fash trouble in Plymouth too of course.

 

[Spymaster]

All the fault of "lefty-scum" (copyright spymaster) of course

This is Ska Invita remember, so "mendacious" is the word of he day.

What he's referring to here is a post on another thread where I suggested that people who threw bricks at emergency service workers are scum, and I want them to go to prison regardless of whether they are right wing scum or lefty scum.

 

[danny la rouge]

This is Ska Invita remember, so "mendacious" is the word of he day.

What he's referring to here is a post on another thread where I suggested that people who threw bricks at emergency service workers are scum, and I want them to go to prison regardless of whether they are right wing scum or lefty scum.

Yeah, he has a problem with you. But the rest of what he says is right isn’t it?

 

[nino_savatte]

If we'd only stopped the Goths when we had a chance, then the Western Roman Empire would still be with us today.

Don't get me started on the Huns.

 

[Spymaster]

Yeah, he has a problem with you. But the rest of what he says is right isn’t it?

Well all he’s done is built a straw man to attack me. He’s just said there’s been historical racism in Britain. No shit!

That’s not what this thread’s about.

What I’ve said is that there is a large number of people who are being driven further right by his and LBJ’s politics that don’t have to be.

I’ve suggested that by engaging with those people rather than calling them ‘racist dogshit’, that slide to the right might be arrested.

Keep doing what he and others do, and this country will have a reform government in 5 years.

I don’t want that.

 

[danny la rouge]

Well all he’s done is built a straw man to attack me. He’s just said there’s been historical racism in Britain. No shit!

That’s not what this thread’s about.

What I’ve said is that there is a large number of people who are being driven further right by his and LBJ’s politics.

I’ve suggested that by engaging with those people rather than calling them ‘racist dogshit’, that slide to the right can be arrested.

Keep doing what he and others do and this country will have a reform government in 5 years.

I’m reading his point as being that for thirty years the government has listened to “concerns” by ramping up anti immigration measures and rhetoric. This is true. So it’s not as if concerns haven’t been listened to.

In fact, people who wouldn’t have been concerned before are concerned now, as a result of the constant fear mongering and rhetoric. Perhaps Dave is one of those. A lot of British POC certainly are.

The point being, it’s not so much the immigration that’s the problem, but constantly being told it’s a problem that’s the problem.

We’ve already noted that many of the areas the pogroms took place are in fact not ethnically diverse. So people are not reacting to what they’re seeing first hand.

 

[ska invita]

Ive got some legitimate concerns tbh. I'm legitimately concerned about bigoted parochial racist people and what they are capable of doing and what kind of world they are creating in their image. Maybe someone on here can psychoanalyse my very real fear of these Others.
They dont do themselves any favours though do they. Keep themselves to themselves. Live around 'their own people'. Dont make an effort to integrate. Some of them are good nurses though tbf.

 

[teqniq]

I have no concerns with immigration. It adds to cultural diversity. What I do have a problem with is the government of the day, particularly the last one using asylum seekers as a political football. It is absolutely contemptible. I support a lot of asylum seekers as part of my job and I can honestly report the hardships and often appalling treatment they receive, particularly in Libya is horrifying. No-one makes a dangerous journey of 1,000's miles on a whim. They do it because they feel they have no choice. When they get here they wish to work to support themselves. It is a matter of honour for many. But they are not allowed to. There should be legal safe routes now and a change in policy that allows them to work legally straight away.

Interestingly there is a Home Office shortages occupation list of jobs that asylum seekers are allowed to do and, after Brexit the list was updated to include carers and care managers, simply because all the European carers had gone home, leaving a huge labour shortage. This in turn, has led now to cases of carers in Africa being trafficked here to plug the gap, often treated appallingly.

 

[Dogsauce]

Well as a starter a salary requirement of £38k+ is ridiculous wouldn’t you say?

Didn’t they come up with that salary figure because apparently if you earn that much then the tax you pay covers what the state spends on an average person, therefore you are not a ‘drain’ on the economy? Which says a lot about how they view most of the population who never gets paid anything like that? What a tawdry way of valuing people.

 

[BristolEcho]

Not couple of decades. Since the 1960s. It’s been a massive change in our parents (well for me my in laws) lifetimes. Places like Blackburn, Bradford. My MiL still remembers the first Pakistani workers in her mill. But London similarly since the 1950s when my Mum was a kid. There’s no denying it whatever your view on it. Maybe it’s for the best but it’s been one helluva adjustment for the boomers.

My Mum has a ration book from when she was a child and her Mum was born at a time when women didn't have the vote. Britain was full of dirty air, working class people died on a regular business through work whilst living in a dire circumstances, it was illegal to be gay, workhouses (RIP the Fishponds 100) were still a thing, people with poor mental health were experimented on, and if you tried to kill yourself you would be punished by the law.

So yes the world has changed massively and there have been huge cultural shifts just as it will be when I look back at the 90's in 40 years time.

I actually think Immigration and having people who have different backgrounds probably had one of the smallest impacts upon my parents lives when you consider all the other things that have changed in their lifetime. My parents loved to tell me stories of the toils of the 50's and 60's and how hard it was, but society also have this tendency to look back and say it was better back then, but who was it better for really?

It's just that immigration is amplified with constant scare stories about how "they" are raping our children, stealing our houses, and want to take over the UK. I remember being told in the 1990's, 2000's and 2010's that we (white British people presumably) would be a minority in "our own" country within the next 15 years and I'm still waiting. I've heard people were saying the same in every decade before that. It's of course never highlighted that we have an issue with violent men across all ethnicities and when you try to point that out it gets dismissed.

These are all the same patterns of racism that we see throughout history targeted at various minority groups. We even see it in other forms of discrimination such as disabilities and sexism.
I wrote in the other thread that I grew up in quite a racist environment that had a negative impact upon me as a child, but looking back so much of it was utter bullshit. I do think it's important to talk to young people about this subject better, and not to write people off as being racist especially when they are young as I know through my experience that this can be changed. Really though it's important to focus on the root causes of the inequality and it's not because there are Muslim people here. The inequality is by design and baked into the system.

Even this thread title makes it hard with me to engage in this thread. Immigration - do you have concerns? Is a leading question in itself and it makes it very hard to have an honest discussion about immigration that apparently people feel we haven't been having yet. It doesn't mean that that there aren't negative effects from immigtation and I've agreed with quite a few posts on this thread, but nearly all of the issues are part of much wider issues in society that won't get magically better just because we slow or stop immigration.

I will also again add that whilst many of the people arrested are from poorer areas, there are also many who have jobs that are well paid and I've literally just seen a name from my childhood has been arrested where they very much had wealth compared to others in the area before moving away. These riots have been a great excuse for people from all backgrounds to start wearing their racism on their slevees and for many it's not about legitimate concerns it's about hate and making people they see as different feel unsafe in our communities. My friend got called a racist slur when they were driving down an A road, and some of my friends aren't wearing out particular clothes incase they are targeted - all of them women too, so it's already working isn't it?

(With no offence to Mojo I know you set up the thread for a good reason.)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I have no concerns with immigration. It adds to cultural diversity. What I do have a problem with is the government of the day, particularly the last one using asylum seekers as a political football. It is absolutely contemptible. i support a lot of asylum seekers as part of my job and I can honestly report the hardships and often appalling treatment they receive, particularly in Libya is horrifying. No-one makes a dangerous journey of 1,000's miles on a whim. They do it because they feel they have no choice. When they get here they wish to work to support themselves. It is a matter of honour for many. But they are not allowed to. There should be legal safe routes now and a change in policy that allows them to work legally straight away.

Interestingly there is a Home Office shortages occupation list of jobs that asylum seekers are allowed to do and, after Brexit the list was updated to include carers and care managers, simply because all the European carers had gone home, leaving a huge labour shortage. This in turn, has led now to cases of carers in Africa being trafficked here to plug the gap, often treated appallingly.

It's despicable. I'd be interested to see the results of a poll asking people if they think the UK is a 'soft touch' for asylum seekers. My guess is that there would be a significant number of people who think it is. And I would further guess that such people don't know that the UK takes in far fewer refugees than other rich European countries and is way, way, way down on the world list. There is a lot of misinformation out there, peddled by the usual suspects and pandered to by the usual supects (including Keir Starmer). Surely the very least we can all do is attempt to correct that misinformation as and when we have the chance. The idea that doing that while standing in solidarity with refugees is somehow causing the hostility is totally twisted.

 

[ska invita]

This in turn, has led now to cases of carers in Africa being trafficked here to plug the gap, often treated appallingly.

Yeah but they're fighting age, watch your back < you should legitimately be concerned.
Its so fucked up, those are people who in many cases need 'care' themselves

Surely the very least we can all do is attempt to correct that misinformation as and when we have the chance. The idea that doing that while standing in solidarity with refugees is somehow causing the hostility is totally twisted.

Fall in line or die in the inevitable civil war

 

[kabbes]

I’m reading his point as being that for thirty years the government has listened to “concerns” by ramping up anti immigration measures and rhetoric. This is true. So it’s not as if concerns haven’t been listened to.

In fact, people who wouldn’t have been concerned before are concerned now, as a result of the constant fear mongering and rhetoric. Perhaps Dave is one of those. A lot of British POC certainly are.

The point being, it’s not so much the immigration that’s the problem, but constantly being told it’s a problem that’s the problem.

We’ve already noted that many of the areas the pogroms took place are in fact not ethnically diverse. So people are not reacting to what they’re seeing first hand.

So we’re still on the strawman that somebody on this thread wants the concerns to be acted upon, are we?

 

[danny la rouge]

So we’re still on the strawman that somebody on this thread wants the concerns to be acted upon, are we?

I don’t know what you mean.

 

[andysays]

I’m reading his point as being that for thirty years the government has listened to “concerns” by ramping up anti immigration measures and rhetoric. This is true. So it’s not as if concerns haven’t been listened to.

In fact, people who wouldn’t have been concerned before are concerned now, as a result of the constant fear mongering and rhetoric. Perhaps Dave is one of those. A lot of British POC certainly are.

The point being, it’s not so much the immigration that’s the problem, but constantly being told it’s a problem that’s the problem.

We’ve already noted that many of the areas the pogroms took place are in fact not ethnically diverse. So people are not reacting to what they’re seeing first hand.

There are two different ways of "listening to concerns" though, and the difference is crucial.

The one that successive governments have favoured is to listen to concerns and say "yes, you're right, migration is at the root of these problems you're concerned about. We will stop any more of these problematic migrants getting here and causing the problem".

The other way is to say "we understand and share your concerns, but we disagree that migration is at the root of the problem, which is actually caused by neo-liberal capitalism and inequality. We will address these concerns, not by attacking migrants but by actually confronting the real problem, in a way which unites migrants and the existing British working class against their common enemy"

Too many on"the left", including some posters on this thread, are too quick to dismiss all those with concerns which they incorrectly blame on migration as irredeemable racists, maybe because they don't have the confidence to make the argument for confronting the real problem.

 

[ska invita]

The one that successive governments have favoured is to listen to concerns and

you missed that successive governments have manufactured "concerns", amplified them , repeated them, made posters about them, bragged about how sadistic they are being, based entire electoral programs and campaigns around them, recognised strategically how good old fashioned racism can be whipped up as a great way to right-wing anti-socialist power, oldest trick in the book, literally thousands of years old

 

[andysays]

you missed that successive governments have manufactured "concerns", amplified them , repeated them, made posters about them, bragged about how sadistic they are being, based entire electoral programs and campaigns around them, recognised strategically how good old fashioned racism can be whipped up as a great way to right-wing anti-socialist power, oldest trick in the book, literally thousands of years old

Yeah, you're right. That bit is important too.

 

[Spymaster]

I’m reading his point as being that for thirty years the government has listened to “concerns” by ramping up anti immigration measures and rhetoric. This is true. So it’s not as if concerns haven’t been listened to.

In fact, people who wouldn’t have been concerned before are concerned now, as a result of the constant fear mongering and rhetoric. Perhaps Dave is one of those. A lot of British POC certainly are.

The point being, it’s not so much the immigration that’s the problem, but constantly being told it’s a problem that’s the problem.

We’ve already noted that many of the areas the pogroms took place are in fact not ethnically diverse. So people are not reacting to what they’re seeing first hand.

And for all of that, the left has been utterly ineffective in preventing the country becoming more right wing than ever. Why?

There are even anti-asylum seekers, not just economic migrants. Surely, Ska and LBJ's mob could have at least prevented the hatred towards asylum seekers if not all immigration. Why hasn't that happened as a very minimum?

People like them sit around in tiny bubbles like this one, telling each other how worthy they are and that everyone who disagrees with them that they're cunts and dogshit. To change things you need to get those people to agree with you, not insult them and tell them that they're views are worthless. There's no political value in only appealing to people who already agree with you.

Whilst they're insulting people on the internet and saying the solution to immigration concerns is more immigration; Farage will be out there scooping up millions of undecideds.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

you missed that successive governments have manufactured "concerns", amplified them , repeated them, made posters about them, bragged about how sadistic they are being, based entire electoral programs and campaigns around them, recognised strategically how good old fashioned racism can be whipped up as a great way to right-wing anti-socialist power, oldest trick in the book, literally thousands of years old

Yeah, but it's our fault, clearly.

 

[Spymaster]

Yeah, but it's our fault, clearly.

People with views like yours in general.

Remember, it's not all about YOU.

 

[maomao]

Blaming the left for the country moving to the right when the right has continually had its voice amplified by government and media is a bit rich. The country is still surprisingly left wing, you just rarely get those opinions on the BBC or other national media. A majority of British people support the renationalisation of utilities but we never have anyone on Question Time to talk about that, no it's fucking Farage again because the Tory BBC want people to be angry about immigration. The roots of the right-wing riots are in the economy but the media have done more than the pathetic boneheads in the EDL etc to channel that dissatisfaction into racism. And then some thick cunt gets a year inside for pushing a copper. Which is funny but unfair.

 

[danny la rouge]

And for all of that, the left has been utterly ineffective in preventing the country becoming more right wing than ever. Why?

Again, we agree that the left (as I’d define it) is tiny, ineffectual, has no real roots in the working class, and to all intents and purposes does not exist.

If you mean the liberal establishment, then I’ve argued for years that it has created a problem with top down multiculturalism and cross class identity politics. I still believe this has contributed to where we are now.

 

[chilango]

Should we engage with these "concerns" any more than concerns about "the Jews controlling the media", "drag queens turning our kids Trans" etc etc.

If so, why? What's different?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

People with views like yours in general.

Remember, it's not all about YOU.

You are mentioning me in post after post after post after post.

If it's not about ME then stop fucking mentioning me.

You have no fucking idea what I do in my conversations irl. You don't like my views? Fine. I'm not going to change them just because certain other people don't agree with them. And we're not such a tiny bubble, thankfully. Your reactionary r/w bubble doesn't see it, that's all. But when we take to the streets to see off the racists, you see it.

 

[danny la rouge]

you missed that successive governments have manufactured "concerns", amplified them , repeated them, made posters about them, bragged about how sadistic they are being, based entire electoral programs and campaigns around them, recognised strategically how good old fashioned racism can be whipped up as a great way to right-wing anti-socialist power, oldest trick in the book, literally thousands of years old

Indeed. That’s what I was was amplifying. For the benefit of kabbes - I was not making any kind of straw man. I’ve no idea what you were referring to. I was making the point that the concern feedback loop is something governments and the media have ramped up over the last few decades.

 

[Spymaster]

You don't like my views? Fine. I'm not going to change them just because certain other people don't agree with them. And we're not such a tiny bubble, thankfully. Your reactionary r/w bubble doesn't see it, that's all.

QED.

"You're reactionary and right-wing because you don't agree with me that the best way to deal with people is to ignore or insult them. You're reactionary and right wing because you don't see that we're not a tiny bubble and we're actually making a massive difference (that you can't see), despite watching the country slide further right than ever before".

Fucking delusional.