Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[zedr]

Should we engage with these "concerns" any more than concerns about "the Jews controlling the media", "drag queens turning our kids Trans" etc etc.

If so, why? What's different?

We should engage with all these "concerns" if we feel able and safe to. How we do that is contextual. If its a large on the street chanting these things then the response should be to shut it down, if theres enough people run them off he street; if its someone we have a relationship with (personal, professional, whatever) then I think its more important to engage in conversation. As I said up thread what this looks like with depend on your relationship with the person. No one can tell you the best way to try and bring someone back from this kind of bigotry, but if we don't bother to engage/deprogram... what's the point? do we just give up?

 

[ska invita]

Should we engage with these "concerns" any more than concerns about "the Jews controlling the media", "drag queens turning our kids Trans" etc etc.

If so, why? What's different?

Benefit cheats in the UK - do you have concerns?​

After worrying and distressing protests last week in which a block of council flats was set on fire, random people in wheelchairs were punched and people on the bus were asked if they claim benefits I think its hight time we listened closely to these fears

 

[BristolEcho]

And for all of that, the left has been utterly ineffective in preventing the country becoming more right wing than ever. Why?

There are even anti-asylum seekers, not just economic migrants. Surely, Ska and LBJ's mob could have at least prevented the hatred towards asylum seekers if not all immigration. Why hasn't that happened as a very minimum?

People like them sit around in tiny bubbles like this one, telling each other how worthy they are and that everyone who disagrees with them that they're cunts and dogshit. To change things you need to get those people to agree with you, not insult them and tell them that they're views are worthless. There's no political value in only appealing to people who already agree with you.

Whilst they're insulting people on the internet and saying the solution to immigration concerns is more immigration; Farage will be out there scooping up millions of undecideds.

What a crock of shit. Most of us have families, work and socialise with people from all sorts of backgrounds.

It seems to me that the "left' are held to higher standards than others and must have all the answers and try to engage everyone. You can just as easily throw the same accusations at other areas of the political spectrum.

Just today I've seen it suggested that the LGBT books being banned in schools is the fault of the left as they haven't done enough to challenge radical religious group that are primarily pushing these agendas due to being scared of addressing the issue. Now I dont disagree that we could all do more to challenge this and some of us have been talking/taking action for a long time, but liberal and right wing homophobes are very happy to work with homophobes from religious communities when it suits them and amplify their voices through the media and to fund their organisations. Of course though the left must take the weight of most of the blame.

 

[BristolEcho]

Benefit cheats in the UK - do you have concerns?​

After worrying and distressing protests last week in which a block of council flats was set on fire, random people in wheelchairs were punched and people on the bus were asked if they claim benefits I think its hight time we listened closely to these fears

Yes exactly. Fuck this shit. There has been a similar long and consistent campaign to demonise people that are disabled that has lead to deaths. It's the exact same patterns. They are stealing from you, you work hard they don't, they are bed blocking etc.

 

[danny la rouge]

We should engage with all these "concerns" if we feel able and safe to. How we do that is contextual. If its a large on the street chanting these things then the response should be to shut it down, if theres enough people run them off he street; if its someone we have a relationship with (personal, professional, whatever) then I think its more important to engage in conversation. As I said up thread what this looks like with depend on your relationship with the person. No one can tell you the best way to try and bring someone back from this kind of bigotry, but if we don't bother to engage/deprogram... what's the point? do we just give up?

Well, I think some of us are pointing out we’ve been trying to do this for years. I know I have. People who can remember my posts on these boards know I’ve done so on here. Often to be pilloried for so doing.

But what we’re up against is far more pervasive: government and media rhetoric and even civil society “common sense” that Immigration is A Problem.

It’s interesting that the (falling, mark you) birth rates in 2022 (the years I found figures for) weren’t far behind net migration. Live births: 652,438. Net migration: 745,000. So if we’re “full”, then births are almost as much of a “problem”. Yet nobody is demanding we “stop the small people”.

There is an old saying that the media doesn’t tell you what to think, but it does tell you what to think about.

So it can feel a bit Canute-like having conversations against the media tide.

 

[teqniq]

As if by magic a survey on immigration:

How serious a problem is immigration in the UK?

How much have you heard about an idea called "the great replacement theory"?

www.yougov.chat

 

[belboid]

As if by magic a survey on immigration:

How serious a problem is immigration in the UK?

How much have you heard about an idea called "the great replacement theory"?

www.yougov.chat

which jumps around on the page so much I just clicked that I believed in 'the great replacement theory'.

 

[danny la rouge]

As if by magic a survey on immigration:

How serious a problem is immigration in the UK?

How much have you heard about an idea called "the great replacement theory"?

www.yougov.chat

That link doesn’t lead anywhere for me.

I was recently asked about immigration (among other things) by YouGov. The questions were all framed as if it is taken for granted that immigration is a problem.

“Who is best placed to tackle immigration - Labour, the Tories, nobody is well placed to tackle immigration”. That sort of thing.

If we’re looking for causes of the perceptions people have, we have to include that sort of thing.

 

[zedr]

Well, I think some of us are pointing out we’ve been trying to do this for years. I know I have. People who can remember my posts on these boards know I’ve done so on here. Often to be pilloried for so doing.

But what we’re up against is far more pervasive: government and media rhetoric and even civil society “common sense” that Immigration is A Problem.

It’s interesting that the (falling, mark you) birth rates in 2022 (the years I found figures for) weren’t far behind net migration. Live births: 652,438. Net migration: 745,000. So if we’re “full”, then births are almost as much of a “problem”. Yet nobody is demanding we “stop the small people”.

There is an old saying that the media doesn’t tell you what to think, but it does tell you what to think about.

So it can feel a bit Canute-like having conversations against the media tide.

yep, totally agree.

sorry, wasnt trying to say this is a silver bullet or will solve what is a huge cultural problem massively exacerbated by mainstream and social media. but at the same time, we can only do what is withing our (usually very small) spheres of influence. for me that's engaging with/challenging ppl I know or work with on their bigoted bullshit.

I also get why ppl who have been doing this might be exhausted and don't want to engage. for me, at the moment, if I took that position, I'd give into despair.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'd give into despair.

Welcome to my world.

That’s pretty much been my point throughout.

 

[Rimbaud]

People with views like yours in general.

Remember, it's not all about YOU.

I think you are overstating the case that this is a response to lefty preachiness. I'm not sure if people in Hartlepool really encounter the archetype of a woke middle class cosmopolitan lefty very often. I don't think this is as big a push factor towards the far right as you suggest.

There is a sense of betrayal that they have voted for reduction in immigration (via Brexit) which hasn't delivered what they expected.

There is also definitely a social and cultural divide between those who are part of a multicultural society (including white people in larger cities who have diverse friendship groups or partners of different backgrounds and work with people of different groups) and those who feel alienated from it and/or threatened by it.

I don't think this is something that can be resolved simply by lefties listening more. Lefties are not in power, and immigration is driven far more by corporate demand for skilled labour than it is by lefties welcoming refugees. The cultural clash between cosmopolitan and non-cosmopolitan is something driven by people living in different social circumstances which require different forms of etiquette (e.g. if you work in an international setting there are different social rules than a small company of local tradesman who are all from the same town) than it is by individual behaviour of left wing people.

 

[planetgeli]

So it can feel a bit Canute-like having conversations against the media tide.

Why oh why oh why has not the left been able to take down the political superstructures of society. We've had megaphones and everything.

 

[ska invita]

I think you are overstating the case that this is a response to lefty preachiness.

you've missed twenty years of his posting, endless far-right talking points, endless berating of "lefty-scum" for everything under the sun.. Of course he is overstating it, he's the longest standing troll on urban.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That link doesn’t lead anywhere for me.

I was recently asked about immigration (among other things) by YouGov. The questions were all framed as if it is taken for granted that immigration is a problem.

“Who is best placed to tackle immigration - Labour, the Tories, nobody is well placed to tackle immigration”. That sort of thing.

If we’re looking for causes of the perceptions people have, we have to include that sort of thing.

I've been doing some work testing AI recently and one of the jobs involves so-called 'jail-breaking', which means getting the AI to say something it has specifically been instructed not to do, such as being racist, sexist, politically biased, etc. One of my jail-breaking attempts involved asking the AI to help me with a school project where I was taking part in a debate and arguing for allowing the boats in. The AI cooed approvingly that it was good that I was prepared to defend an unpopular viewpoint. I thought that was very revealing of the nature of the data it had been trained on.

 

[Spymaster]

you've missed twenty years of his posting, endless far-right talking points, endless berating of "lefty-scum" for everything under the sun.. Of course he is overstating it, he's the longest standing troll on urban.

And here we are again

Ska Invita is a liar wrt "endless berating of lefty scum" as a search of my posts will prove.

The rest is opinion that you're free to agree or disagree with.

 

[redsquirrel]

Should we engage with these "concerns" any more than concerns about "the Jews controlling the media", "drag queens turning our kids Trans" etc etc.

If so, why? What's different?

Does that not depend on what 'concerns' actually means?

I see a qualitative different between someone who might argue that the UK needs a quota or points system, and someone who thinks Jews control the media or believes that 'we're taking in too many muslims'.

Advocates for quotas or points systems are taking a non-class based position on immigration, but while I disagree with them I would not refuse to organise alongside them. I would not push for them to be excluded from a union, or refuse stand on picket lines with them.

EDIT: I don't think anti-immigration stuff should be treated any different to anti-semitic stuff. But in both cases I see a differences of degree. 'Jews control the media' = fuck off; 'the Isreal lobby has too much influence' = could be a poor choice of words and thinking, could be ingrained anti-semitism. I'd say the response depends on the circumstance.
There have certainly been some comments on Isreal/Palestine threads on U75 that I think have been dodgy, sometimes unintentionally anti-semitic to a certain degree and posters have been, gently, pulled up. And then there is other stuff which is just anti-semitic bilge and those posters have been told GTFO.

 

[Sue]

I've been doing some work testing AI recently and one of the jobs involves so-called 'jail-breaking', which means getting the AI to say something it has specifically been instructed not to do, such as being racist, sexist, politically biased, etc. One of my jail-breaking attempts involved asking the AI to help me with a school project where I was taking part in a debate and arguing for allowing the boats in. The AI cooed approvingly that it was good that I was prepared to defend an unpopular viewpoint. I thought that was very revealing of the nature of the data it had been trained on.

Not massively surprised. After all, we have this:

'The study found that each algorithm — known in the industry as Large Language Models (LLMs) — showed "unequivocal evidence of prejudice against women".

The programs generated texts that associated women's names with words such as "home", "family" or "children", but men's names were linked with "business", "salary" or "career".

While men were portrayed in high-status jobs like teachers, lawyers and doctors, women were frequently prostitutes, cooks or domestic servants.'

AI tools by OpenAI and Meta generate sexist content, UNESCO warns

The world's most popular artificial intelligence (AI) tools are powered by programs from OpenAI and Meta that show prejudice against women, according to a study launched on Thursday by the UN's cultural…

www.france24.com

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not massively surprised. After all, we have this:

'The study found that each algorithm — known in the industry as Large Language Models (LLMs) — showed "unequivocal evidence of prejudice against women".

The programs generated texts that associated women's names with words such as "home", "family" or "children", but men's names were linked with "business", "salary" or "career".

While men were portrayed in high-status jobs like teachers, lawyers and doctors, women were frequently prostitutes, cooks or domestic servants.'

AI tools by OpenAI and Meta generate sexist content, UNESCO warns

The world's most popular artificial intelligence (AI) tools are powered by programs from OpenAI and Meta that show prejudice against women, according to a study launched on Thursday by the UN's cultural…

www.france24.com

Yes. They are genuinely trying to fix this and spending a lot of money paying people like me to do so. But the kind of work I've been doing is a sticking plaster really. The LLMs are very bad at generalising concepts from specific examples of corrections. A sexist data set will inevitably produce sexist LLMs.

 

[furluxor]

You must have missed the sauce in Dogsauce

Well, now I'll miss it permanently because s/he's blocked. More for you if you want it.

 

[danny la rouge]

And here we are again

Ska Invita is a liar wrt "endless berating of lefty scum" as a search of my posts will prove.

The rest is opinion that you're free to agree or disagree with.

Right. This is upsetting to watch. I like both of you, and it’s always sad when my friends don’t get on with each other.

ska invita Spy is not a right wing troll. He’s a stubborn contrarian who likes to argue.

Spymaster Ska isn’t a liar, he’s someone who is frightened by the rise of the far right.

You have a lot in common. You’re Londoners who have direct experience of racism, with families who are POC, and who have both spent too long on bulletin boards.

You both want to stem the tide of racism. But you have different opinions about how to do that. This is fine. You’re both probably right about some stuff and wrong about some stuff. We all are.

You are also definitely using the same terms to mean different things. “Lefty” being one of them.

OK, let’s discuss. And let’s not accuse each other of having bad motives. I genuinely don’t think either of you do.

 

[Gramsci]

People on the left live in a bubble.

Really?

I'm not that good at being left. However my bubble consists of living in multicultural area and working with a bunch of people who come from a variety of places and ethnic backgrounds.

I spend most of time in the working class

There is assumption here that if you are on the left , whatever that is, your outside looking in. Not connecting etc to the proper working class who have legitimate concerns.

The bubble I do live in is a multicultural one. And it's largely working class

The people I work with were appalled by the violence. As people who are immigrants or descended from recent immigrants they say some of the things posted here about those who are anti immigrants /have so called concerns. So are they out of touch?

 

[Gramsci]

And imo this country has moved on even in my lifetime.

This largely due to immigrant communities fighting to be accepted and the so derided left.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Right. This is upsetting to watch. I like both of you, and it’s always sad when my friends don’t get on with each other.

ska invita Spy is not a right wing troll. He’s a stubborn contrarian who likes to argue.

Spymaster Ska isn’t a liar, he’s someone who is frightened by the rise of the far right.

You have a lot in common. You’re Londoners who have direct experience of racism, with families who are POC, and who have both spent too long on bulletin boards.

You both want to stem the tide of racism. But you have different opinions about how to do that. This is fine. You’re both probably right about some stuff and wrong about some stuff. We all are.

You are also definitely using the same terms to mean different things. “Lefty” being one of them.

OK, let’s discuss. And let’s not accuse each other of having bad motives. I genuinely don’t think either of you do.

Spymaster has a long history of intentionally winding up 'lefties'. He's freely admitted it. Ska does not have a history of intentionally winding up anyone.

If Spymaster now wants to be taken seriously and not to be assumed to be on the wind-up, he needs to explicitly state as much and explicitly come clean about his past activities.

That's the problem when people come here to troll then stay and find they want to have meaningful conversations. They've muddied the waters for themselves.

 

[danny la rouge]

Spymaster has a long history of intentionally winding up 'lefties'. He's freely admitted it. Ska does not have a history of intentionally winding up anyone.

If Spymaster now wants to be taken seriously and not to be assumed to be on the wind-up, he needs to explicitly state as much and explicitly come clean about his past activities.

That's the problem when people come here to troll then stay and find they want to have meaningful conversations. They've muddied the waters for themselves.

There’s something in that, for sure.

But I freely admit to a bit of flyting myself from time to time. I’m sure we’ve all dabbled a bit.

But the fact is what Spy is is a centrist on a left wing bulletin board. And that doesn’t make him disingenuous. It makes him a stubborn pugilist.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I've been doing some work testing AI recently and one of the jobs involves so-called 'jail-breaking', which means getting the AI to say something it has specifically been instructed not to do, such as being racist, sexist, politically biased, etc. One of my jail-breaking attempts involved asking the AI to help me with a school project where I was taking part in a debate and arguing for allowing the boats in. The AI cooed approvingly that it was good that I was prepared to defend an unpopular viewpoint. I thought that was very revealing of the nature of the data it had been trained on.

I wouldn't look too far into that. So long as it's within parameters, ChatGPT spews out pretty much any shite it thinks you want to hear.

I need help to convince people that beans should be placed on a baked potato before the cheese. Could you help?

ChatGPT said:​

Sure! Convincing people that beans should go on a baked potato before the cheese, especially when it’s an unpopular opinion, can be a fun challenge. Here’s a strategy to make your case persuasive, engaging, and maybe even a little humorous:

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I wouldn't look too far into that. So long as it's within parameters, ChatGPT spews out pretty much any shite it thinks you want to hear.

The makers of these LLMs are spending billions in an attempt to stop them from spewing out what they think you want to hear. After working on the problem, I've reached the conclusion that they might well fail, however much money they throw at it. But that's for another thread.

 

[klang]

But the fact is what Spy is is a centrist on a left wing bulletin board. And that doesn’t make him disingenuous.

Macho trolling, 'woke', 'lefty scum' etc on a thread about far right attacks does though.

 

[Spymaster]

If Spymaster now wants to be taken seriously and not to be assumed to be on the wind-up, he needs to explicitly state as much and explicitly come clean about his past activities.

I've told you before, I've absolutely no interest in marching to your tunes and will not do so. I will challenge you and others wherever I see fit and in whatever way I choose to do so. People can take my posts however they decide.

Cheers danny la rouge . I've posted my genuine feelings on this thread. Ska was always going to come in swinging, but he is being utterly deceitful with the "lefty scum" thing.

 

[danny la rouge]

Macho trolling, 'woke', 'lefty scum' etc on a thread about far right attacks does though.

The context for “lefty scum” was that he didn’t care whether it was far right or left wing idiots attacking emergency services, they were both scum in his view and both deserved custodial sentences.

Now, there are ways of putting things, and I’d chose different ones. But that’s what you’d expect a centrist to genuinely believe, isn’t it? I don’t see the mendacity there.

Sure, he’s a wind up. Sure, I disagree with him on a lot. And I wouldn’t use woke the way he does. But I’m not a centrist and neither are you.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I've told you before, I've absolutely no interest in marching to your tunes and will not do so.

In that case, the waters will continue to be muddied. And it's your own fault as you threw the dirt in there in the first place.