Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?
- Thread starter mojo pixy
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Because that’s what happens when you just reduce a complex social issue to “some people are nasty”. The ones demonised as nasty are inevitably the ones with the least social capital.
Bus Honeygun
This week the score draws are plentiful
Even when the white majority status of Plymouth was more like 99% it always had a big far-right contingent. I guess the long-standing military links might have a lot to do with that. There's even a bit of catholic-protestant sectarianism which is a total outlier for the surrounding area but probably stems from the steady stream of Scots moving there as part of their forces deployment or to work in the dockyard.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Whether one agrees with ska invita or not he's got an opinion.
With you after all these pages I'm none the wiser.
Apart from your obvious disagreement with the "left" and support of immigration controls.
You post up comments about talking to Trump supporters on welfare dependency being a element for this and how your ML tells you about immigration of Muslims here.
But despite you being vocal about how immigration controls should be talked about I've no idea what you think of what people say to you.
And on talking about immigration controls when you have brought them up and I've replied with the fact that they are already in place you go silent. Or say you don't know enough.
What do you want?
Do you think there is enough control of immigration? Or should it be restricted further?
Or is it that there are enough controls but government incompetence means they aren't administered properly?
Or perhaps because that's who some of us live and interact with on a daily basis. I have no idea what the best strategies are to combat middle class racism, and I haven't seen many suggestions on how to do so from those that are middle class. Perhaps you have some ideas?
Yeah, I’ve made a start on those (genuinely). Come back to me in four years.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Partly.
Partly the remnants of a belief in the w/c as the revolutionary class.
...and partly people buying into cultural tropes (positive or negative) about who/what/where the w/c is.
I doubt there'd be the defensiveness from some on this thread if they thought we were talking about Waitrose shopping, privately educated Home Counties folk with "concerns about immigration".
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I grew up there. When at primary school in 60s it was 100 percent white.
More recently there has been a few Polish shops in Plymouth.
I'm in London know so only go back occasionally.
On far right. My area around docklands was always Labour and I didn't remember far right in docklands I grew up in . Which was the working class bit
Military links. The dockyard meant Labour supporting with small p patriotism. Plymouth was heavily bombed in war and it's not forgotten.
However I do remember out in sticks there was right wing backs wood Tories. And some support for far right.
On sectarianism. Well Plymouth history was as a centre of Puritanism. On parliament side in civil war. I went to school with Plymouth brethren. Unlike rest of Devon non conformism was linked to working class and Anglican church to the establishment.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
People are rightly saying working class people aren't all right wing, so let's ditch the idea that "the left" is entirely middle class ffs please.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Have we got to the bit of the discussion where we all agree that there's little or nothing to be concerned about with immigration, but there's everything to be concerned about with the level of right wing and far right racist discourse that's being pumped out by politicians, the media, commentators and social media bellends yet?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
My varied life in London means I know what's been labelled on these boards as an Islington middle class woman who is out of touch.
When she goes back to home counties to visit she told me she gets into rows over the dinner table about things like race and immigration.
Her strategy is to argue and be glad to come back to London.
Behind closed doors there is a fair amount of prejudiced attitudes in sections of middle class.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
That's it innit.
Yes, talk to people who might be thinking about Farage and that like Spy's mate Dave, stand in solidarity with people being targeted, and against the racists/fight them when necessary.
BUT how the hell do ordinary people push back against the multi-billion [currency] tsunami of culture war nastiness?
Elon Musk is one of the richest people on the planet.
Bus Honeygun
This week the score draws are plentiful
Without wishing to derail the thread Gramsci I concur that the politics of Devonport in particular are primarily left-wing, but I guess a lot of my post is my perception of Plymouth as someone from elsewhere in Devon (Torbay originally, Exeter most of my life). I just remember the NF standing in Devonport as a kid when they otherwise couldn't get a candidate anywhere else in the south west*, the big far-right presence in Argyle's hoolie firm, the 'Plymouth Boneheads' as they were locally known who used to come up to Northern Soul nights in Exeter and stand around glaring, going there when I was younger for nights out or away games etc. etc.
* Although checking my facts, I see the NF did put up a candidate in Torbay in 1979 who got 647 votes. I can tell you that the population there then would have been 99.9% white British with me as one of 0.01% and that explains a lot about my experiences growing up there.
* Although checking my facts, I see the NF did put up a candidate in Torbay in 1979 who got 647 votes. I can tell you that the population there then would have been 99.9% white British with me as one of 0.01% and that explains a lot about my experiences growing up there.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I thought this thread was started to separate immigration controls discussion from discussing far right and recent riots?
As on the racist riot thread it was considered that doing both together ( inadvertently) was allowing far right to set the agenda?
As it's seemed to have slipped into doing that
As on the racist riot thread it was considered that doing both together ( inadvertently) was allowing far right to set the agenda?
As it's seemed to have slipped into doing that
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Well it's not really the far right is it. It's been pumped out for years from governments eg brown's British jobs for British workers, may's hostile environment, shammer's talk of sending Bangladeshis back - what were fringe talking points years back have been brought into the mainstream by Labour and tory politicians. That's the framework in which these concerns are manifesting.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
We can also add the resistance of many Labour MPs to inviting workers from the former colonies to fill gaps in the workforce, as discussed in David Olusoga's documentary.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
True, but that's happened alongside the far-right's massive growth during the same period. The two have been feeding off each other.
quite a good write up, and in line with many on here
www.lrb.co.uk
Daniel Trilling | This time it’s worse
While far-right activists like Tommy Robinson may inflame a situation, the ideological fuel for the riots comes from...
www.lrb.co.uk
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
What PM said - I say it is liberalism that is setting the agenda, after all populism is an offshoot of liberalism not an alternative. Liberalism creates the ground for populism to spring up, and then has to react to it.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
‘Are the left elite to blame for the violence in Southport as they continue to smear and ignore angry communities?’ GBNews asked in an online poll on 1 August.quite a good write up, and in line with many on here
Daniel Trilling | This time it’s worse
While far-right activists like Tommy Robinson may inflame a situation, the ideological fuel for the riots comes from...
…and a number of posters on this thread
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
There has been no attempt from anyone on this thread to suggest that the problem is solely down to 'lefties' whatsoever. Of course it isn't. What has been said is that the attitudes of those on the left who ignore, insult, and ridicule, people who voice concerns haven't helped. I've even gone further and said they've been thoroughly unhelpful and have driven people right. That's true imo.
This attempt from you and a few others to frame that criticism as "it's ALL the left's fault" is just an effort to deflect what has actually been said, and is far more difficult to counter.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
It’s also unhelpful to ignore the fact that repeated polling has shown that most concerns “voiced” about immigration derive from ignorance about the scale, nature and causes of immigration to the UK.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
So if people are ignorant about the scale, nature, and causes of immigration, call them racists cunts and dogshit, and ignore them?
That's the way forwards, right?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Those who prey on that ignorance and amplify it certainly are, but I don’t recall posters suggesting that such descriptors are “the way forward “.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's exactly what you've been saying. Own your bullshit smears at least.
You have repeatedly, and nastily, either misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented what I have said. For example:
"Keep doing what you think is "the right thing" and they'll just say "YOU'RE NOT LISTENING" and fuck off to the right. Many are already on their way.
And once again, what you are suggesting is exactly more of the same from the left. "Fuck what they think. This is what LBJ and SpookyFrank off the internet think".
All you've said so far is that you should keep doing what you've been doing and has proven utterly useless
You are part of a group of people whose idea of challenging racism is to ignore the concerns of those considering right-wing ideology as unworthy of interest. Your solution is to do things that will drive them further right. You're in the same group as SpookyFrank who calls them dogshit, and others who call them racists, whether or not you do that yourself."
Your words. Nasty words. Ignorant words. No doubt there are other posters on this thread who could pick out a similar list of things you've said about them as well. I'll just do some of the ones about me.
I'm putting you on ignore for now. I'm sick of you.
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Bus Honeygun
This week the score draws are plentiful
Same shit 1,000 years ago...
See also..
en.m.wikipedia.org
Plenty more examples here and all over the world, going back forever. Nothing to do with the neo-liberal capitalist bourgeois hegemony or Keith Starmer & The Labour Party.
The Massacre of the Jews at Clifford's Tower
One of the worst anti-Semitic massacres of the Middle Ages took place in York in 1190.
www.english-heritage.org.uk
See also..
Gordon Riots - Wikipedia
Plenty more examples here and all over the world, going back forever. Nothing to do with the neo-liberal capitalist bourgeois hegemony or Keith Starmer & The Labour Party.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
And what bit of that says "it's ALL the left's fault"?
Last night you were convinced I was saying it's all YOUR fault.
You need to take step back, a deep breath, and read what posts actually say.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh i think it would be a bold claim to assert that the lp had anything to do with events in 1190 or 1780. but taking them out of their context renders things meaningless. the gordon riots, for example, saw the georgian equivalent of the edl running riot when there were 'understandable concerns' that the penal laws against catholics might be relaxed. sure, nasty shit's always happened but it happens within the context of its time and not as a meaningless series of events.Same shit 1,000 years ago...
The Massacre of the Jews at Clifford's Tower
One of the worst anti-Semitic massacres of the Middle Ages took place in York in 1190.www.english-heritage.org.uk
See also..
Gordon Riots - Wikipedia
Plenty more examples here and all over the world, going back forever. Nothing to do with the neo-liberal capitalist bourgeois hegemony or Keith Starmer & The Labour Party.
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