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Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

Interesting point about the "cultural integration" angle. A couple of years ago, my wife had to do her "life in the UK" test, for her right to remain, which seems to pretty much mainly be about making sure immigrants are culturally integrated. We had the study book for it which includes mock tests. We were at a big family Christmas do and got talking about this so ended up getting everyone to do a mock test. Out of over a dozen of us there, the only ones who got enough for a pass was my wife, myself and my cousin's husband. It would seem, according to our government, that many natives of the UK aren't culturally integrated enough.
Yes, it’s a ridiculous test, requiring incomers to know more boring facts about the UK than those who were born there. What does knowing about historic sporting victories, which motorways have service stations and where the Giants Causeway is prove, if many British-born people don’t know these things either?
 
Yes, it’s a ridiculous test, requiring incomers to know more boring facts about the UK than those who were born there. What does knowing about historic sporting victories, which motorways have service stations and where the Giants Causeway is prove, if many British-born people don’t know these things either?

Oh come now, knowing how many players are in a rugby league side compared to rugby union is clearly a cornerstone of who we really are. I know my wife found it enormously helpful in feeling more part of the British story, and it really boosted her confidence and sense of belonging.

(Like everything else, this fucking ludicrous pub quiz masqerading as a serious test is just there to make money. There' s £7bn a year in immigration / visa fees for the home office and they have no intention of killing the golden egg laying goose. It's fine if you have a reasonable education level but it was really sad to see people shitting themselves and mumbling answers to questions before they went in. The security is ridiculous too- you are assumed to be either a. Osama bin Laden or b. an impostor unless you can prove otherwise on at least three occasions. All nice cushy outsourced deals for some Tory cousin I suppose )
 
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It’s not about highlighting cultural differences as a point of discussion though. But recognising how people come to fear the influx of or resent the other. This place is a bit of a bubble in that respect. I mean we’re all articulate many us living in cities. I will write a better post tomorrow. Went on my computer as it’s not working for me Phone wise.

What I mean I think regarding my previous post about not going on about this and it being made worse is the way Councils go on.

I come from a small town where predictably there was a small amount of racist violence. Thinking on it I have lived in my London centric bubble so long now I dont realise I'm lucky not to have to deal with this racist violence that's been affecting other communities. In my everyday life I only meet a handful of people who have views on immigration/ Britishness that I don't agree with.

However I can see how resentment can be caused by Councils. I'm on and off one of the more vocal members of my local community and rub the (Labour ) Council up the wrong way.

My Council is all right on. Diversity this Diversity. Main way to deal with someone like me is to say I'm not "representative" of the local community/ people who complain about Council services are the same people and Council want to get more "representative" views by getting more "diverse" feedback.

It really winds me up. Being White British that's the easiest way to discredit people.

And btw the things I complain about are bread and butter issues. Not anything that controversial.

Its got to the point where I just stop listening to the authorities when they go on about importance of diversity and all the rest of it..
 
The interesting thing is that it's no longer totally a white view thing. I live in a very diverse area and know people who moved to the UK (some as recently as the 1980s) from places like the Caribbean and India who have expressed concern about the current immigration situation. I've no idea how many feel this way but there's potential danger for the government if it tries to adopt a 'bunch of white thugs' sweeping brush approach in the wake of the riots to the whole immigration issue.
 
The interesting thing is that it's no longer totally a white view thing. I live in a very diverse area and know people who moved to the UK (some as recently as the 1980s) from places like the Caribbean and India who have expressed concern about the current immigration situation. I've no idea how many feel this way but there's potential danger for the government if it tries to adopt a 'bunch of white thugs' sweeping brush approach in the wake of the riots to the whole immigration issue.

Exactly the same where I am. The idea that concern about immigration is exclusively a whites only issue is about 50 years out of date.

But then, given the framing I’m seeing - and the blatant demonisation of sections of the white working class as untermensch - from some elite liberal twitter grifters, it’s not being acknowledged or explored.
 
The interesting thing is that it's no longer totally a white view thing. I live in a very diverse area and know people who moved to the UK (some as recently as the 1980s) from places like the Caribbean and India who have expressed concern about the current immigration situation. I've no idea how many feel this way but there's potential danger for the government if it tries to adopt a 'bunch of white thugs' sweeping brush approach in the wake of the riots to the whole immigration issue.

I think that's largely to do with the demonisation of asylum seekers that's been going on since Blair years.

The kind of complaint I hear sometimes is that "I came here to work and these asylum seekers get it all on a plate"

I'm afraid people pick up bits and pieces in mainstream media. If something gets said enough mud sticks.
 
Interesting point about the "cultural integration" angle. A couple of years ago, my wife had to do her "life in the UK" test, for her right to remain, which seems to pretty much mainly be about making sure immigrants are culturally integrated. We had the study book for it which includes mock tests. We were at a big family Christmas do and got talking about this so ended up getting everyone to do a mock test. Out of over a dozen of us there, the only ones who got enough for a pass was my wife, myself and my cousin's husband. It would seem, according to our government, that many natives of the UK aren't culturally integrated enough.
Perhaps the education system should ensure that everyone does know certain facts about the country of which they are natives. Can people fully participate in, say, electoral processes if they know nothing about them?
 

"Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?"​

No.


This made me smile :thumbs:

Made me think there is in an alternative universe a place where , instead of me having to understand people's concerns about immigration , people who have these concerns have to make the effort to understand why I'm not bothered.

As the few people I know who have these concerns have zero interest in why it doesn't bother me. More than that even if I don't bring it up periodically they will. As though it offends them I don't think the same.

For example being told the trouble with this country is people like me. And I quote"guardian reading liberals" .

Which is another thing about the immigration debate. It's also about who supposedly really cares about this country and who doesn't.
 
Perhaps the education system should ensure that everyone does know certain facts about the country of which they are natives. Can people fully participate in, say, electoral processes if they know nothing about them?
You’re right. I have no idea how many people are in a rugby league team, or even why there’s another type of rugby with different rules. Nor do I care. I should definitely have the vote taken from me. And probably NHS access. Do I even need a passport? After all, I won’t be travelling to international matches.
 
Perhaps the education system should ensure that everyone does know certain facts about the country of which they are natives. Can people fully participate in, say, electoral processes if they know nothing about them?
Blair tried all that with Citizenship lessons; dull as fucking ditchwater
 
been to a community where a roomful of residents were told by a council being told we need more diverse viewpoints it's a Brighton council estate it just isn't that diverse the response so we don't count?
things went rapidly downhill from then.
 
Perhaps the education system should ensure that everyone does know certain facts about the country of which they are natives. Can people fully participate in, say, electoral processes if they know nothing about them?

Not against this. I was never taught at school that I had rights. Right to vote right to hold differing political views.

At school I was taught that the Conservative party was the natural party of government/ socialism ( Labour party) was an ideology alien to the British way of life and the Liberals were misguided.

Never once at school was I told people had rights
 
If people are freaking out because there is a spider on the wall then they need to get a sense of proportion. I mean, that’s the nature of fears in the modern world, generally speaking, isn’t it? Some fears can be materially grounded in existential danger, of course, but most generally aren’t. Do you find that people who are scared are good at snapping out of it after being lectured on the irrationality of their fear?

But there isn't a spider on the wall. Only around 30,000 people arrived on small boats last year, less than a third of those processed through the asylum system with the rest mostly coming from Ukraine and Hong Kong. Immigration is currently high, though it's predicted to fall, and it's largely foreign students (over half a million a year), healthcare workers and middle class workers often from places like France, Germany and Ireland.

Whilst the housing of refugees in hotels in very poor areas was a stupid policy, most of those objecting to immigration are not really experiencing any effects from it (like the posh white couple in the south west you mentioned in an earlier post). It is neither a cultural clash or a cultural encounter in a lot of places. It's a phantasm. A moral panic. And as for those targetting Mosques, they've been here for generations in some cases. There has been no sudden social shift.

We've been here before. 15 years ago it was disabled people and benefit claimants. Whilst that didn't lead to pogroms it did lead to disabled people being physically attacked and hate crimes rising sharply followed by brutal cuts and mass impoverishment. Much like now there was a cross class belief that most claimants were scroungers, that benefits were too high and easy to get and that 'intergenerational worklessness' was a huge problem despite it barely actually existing. And like now this was accepted by all the main political parties as the truth, reported by all media as the truth and even charities created to support people in poverty began promoting or at least accepting this narrative.

Even some benefit claimants went on about scroungers. And I think this is key. The idea of hordes of asylum seekers flooding the country is a whipped up fear of an imagined other that are not viewed as human but a kind of amorphous malignant horde meaning to do us harm. That's why racist dave or whatever his name was could stick up for spymaster, he's not one of the horde. The fear is of an abstract other, not the nice Ghanian family who live next door, or your mate's Polish boyfriend. Whether it's chavs, claimants, migrants, queers, travellers, lone parents, disabled people, it goes round and round, this spectre always exists and is whipped up as a way to project people's anxieties, and often very legitimate anger about their circumstances onto. But it's never real. It's always based on lies, exaggeration, rumours and fear-mongering.

I don't know, I'm finding it hard to have a settled opinion on this. But I think there is a danger in the approach of taking people's concerns seriously that you just end up propagating the moral panic. That's what sections of the left did with claimants and it just poured fuel onto the fire. The concerns are not legitimate for the most part. They are not based on what is actually happening.
 
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Not against this. I was never taught at school that I had rights. Right to vote right to hold differing political views.

At school I was taught that the Conservative party was the natural party of government/ socialism ( Labour party) was an ideology alien to the British way of life and the Liberals were misguided.

Never once at school was I told people had rights
Blimey - which school was that?

At my London comprehensive, we learned a lot about social history, the labour party, unions and suffrage.
 
It’s not about a “clash of cultures”. Certainly, if you’re referring to what I’ve been talking about, it’s definitely not a “clash of cultures”. I’ve very specifically mentioned an encounter of cultures. The conflict I am referring to is a psychic one, not some kind of interactional antagonism.
Your going to have to say that again for us at the back
 
If people are freaking out because there is a spider on the wall then they need to get a sense of proportion. I mean, that’s the nature of fears in the modern world, generally speaking, isn’t it? Some fears can be materially grounded in existential danger, of course, but most generally aren’t. Do you find that people who are scared are good at snapping out of it after being lectured on the irrationality of their fear?

The way this may well link with the also-true things being said about material circumstances is the way that the future is represented by different groups of people, as a result of those circumstances. Research indicates that working-class kids understand the notion of “the future” mediated through ideas of threat. (By comparison, middle-class kids construct it in terms of opportunity.) When your circumstances are precarious, you learn that change can bring disaster, and this becomes the way that you make sense of possible future pathways. So I would not be surprised to find that communities more threatened by material circumstances are more resistant to seeing evidence of change in their environment. More fear, in other words.
Violent racists arent motivated by fear but by disgust and a view of others as subhumans. That how soldiers kill too....they dont see their victims as real people. All this fear psychoanalysis sounds like bullshit to me
 
Your going to have to say that again for us at the back
I’m saying what smokedout is saying, despite the fact that smokedout seems to think that they’re disagreeing with me. It’s not about people actually clashing with each other. It’s about people being scared of an imagined other.
 
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Violent racists arent motivated by fear but by disgust and a view of others as subhumans. That how soldiers kill too....they dont see their victims as real people. All this fear psychoanalysis sounds like bullshit to me
The vast majority of the people we’re talking about on this thread are not violent racists, though. Not physically violent, at least.
 
Blimey - which school was that?

At my London comprehensive, we learned a lot about social history, the labour party, unions and suffrage.

1970s Plymouth. A town divided in two halves by class.

I passed 11plus and also paased common entrance exam for the local public school the other side of town.

From what I've heard teaching in inner London was much more progressive at that time

So I went to the local public school.

Taught me all I need to know about class.

To go back to thread if concerns about immigration are about encounters of cultures then this country has more than one culture. Going to public school away from the working class area I had lived in was complete cultural encounter of an Other. I wasn't welcome. Did my best but it was never good enough. Not the other pupils but the teachers were the problem

I had and still have not only nothing in common but an abiding hatred of sections of British public.

And a dislike of those in positions of authority teachers etc which has mellowed with time

Which I don't have for the the immigrants here / second generation immigrants here.

In fact compared to other section of white British community I've more in common with my black British neighbours.

In hindsight probably why I unconsciously gravitated to the area I now live

That's imo what gets the few people I know who are against immigration. That people like me are letting the side down.
 
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My late great mate was white and his wife is black. He was a remarkably tolerant person who could get along with almost anyone, and diffuse potentially aggressive situations.

He had a mate, "Dan" who would occasionally rock up and make derogatory comments about "spear chuckers", in front of my mates. I asked him why he put up with it, and he explained that "Dan" had a messy upbringing. He's mixed race and maybe he used racism to fit in, as a kid, back in the 70s.

Just couldn't understand why he hadn't grown out of it and why he would even contemplate saying it in public.
 
But there isn't a spider on the wall. Only around 30,000 people arrived on small boats last year, less than a third of those processed through the asylum system with the rest mostly coming from Ukraine and Hong Kong. Immigration is currently high, though it's predicted to fall, and it's largely foreign students (over half a million a year), healthcare workers and middle class workers often from places like France, Germany and Ireland.

Whilst the housing of refugees in hotels in very poor areas was a stupid policy, most of those objecting to immigration are not really experiencing any effects from it (like the posh white couple in the south west you mentioned in an earlier post). It is neither a cultural clash or a cultural encounter in a lot of places. It's a phantasm. A moral panic. And as for those targetting Mosques, they've been here for generations in some cases. There has been no sudden social shift.
Although I agree with the notion that many of those objecting to immigration are not really directly experiencing any effects from it, they have/are all experiencing the deliberate consolidation of the state and destruction of the welfare state/public services under successive neoliberal governments. It is in this context that negative solidarity with asylum seekers/refugees is so early stoked by the fash. In a society where fewer and fewer ordinary people can perceive any benefit from the state, even meeting the basic physiological needs of asylum seekers can be cast a the government giving these illegals everything they want. I suspect that the anger displayed by the racist rioters was in part directed at the state that has withdrawn from their lives, but allows the illegals to come here and then gives it to them on a plate.

None of which is intended to excuse the hatred whipped up by the fash, but it is important to attempt to place the near pogroms in the context of the societal violence of the neoliberal state.
 
I’m saying what smokedout is saying, despite the fact that smokedout seems to think that he’s disagreeing with me. It’s not about people actually clashing with each other. It’s about people being scared of an imagined other.

I'm not against what you are getting. Which is if Im correct the social psychological underpinning of racism. I've read some later Gilroy. Don't know what you think of him. He goes on about loss of empire and melancholia.

I think this has it's place but I can't help feeling there are also more prosaic issues.

Take my born and bred Londoner work mates of a certain generation.

For them the postwar social contract was that if you got up in morning and went to work you got a Council flat. When you had children you got a council house. Work was well paid. I'm talking of dockers and printers for example. When you had children they automatically got council flat when adult. They also got handed job say in printing automatically. Jobs were handed in Father to son. Yes I know this is gender normative. But just ditching this all I think means progressive values get linked with neo liberalism. And unfortunately some of the pushback has basis in that liberal progressive values are linked with this

As one said to me recently my kid won't automatically get a council flat. These days they give them to anybody. In his view.

Similar to Plymouth my home town . The kids in my primary school assumed they would follow their father's into apprentice ships in Dockyard. High status well paid jobs. From that young age they felt they had secure future. Which goes back to something you said earlier about how working class and middle class now see future. Either as threat or opportunity. In 70s my working class in primary school saw it as a guaranteed stable future. That's gone now.

These were all white working class.

As years of neo liberalism went on this unwritten social contract was gradually ditched

With no discussion.

And gradually these became white chavs to be derided.

I know there is the subtle analysis but I can't help feeling that sorting out basic bread and butter issues would sort racism out. But that would not fit with neo Liberal economics
 
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I’m saying what smokedout is saying, despite the fact that smokedout seems to think that they’re disagreeing with me. It’s not about people actually clashing with each other. It’s about people being scared of an imagined other.
So how do you show such people that they are wrong?

Of course there are psychological explanations for why people get certain things wrong in particular ways. But there are psychological explanations for just about anything.

And it must follow that there are also necessarily psychological explanations for why other people don't get that same stuff wrong. What is the psychological explanation for people who don't fear an imagined other?
 
I do want to be clear, like my first post on this, that everything I’ve said about the role of fear in prejudice only stands in addition to everything that has been said about material and political circumstances. I’m not for a moment suggesting that racism and prejudice is just arising from one thing. My point was the very opposite — that you can only understand it when you take it all into account.
 
So how do you show such people that they are wrong?

Of course there are psychological explanations for why people get certain things wrong in particular ways. But there are psychological explanations for just about anything.

And it must follow that there are also necessarily psychological explanations for why other people don't get that same stuff wrong. What is the psychological explanation for people who don't fear an imagined other?
Yes, there are long and deep studies into these things. Forgive me, though, if I don’t start trying to summarise it all on a Sunday night! And besides, I have the same but inverted critique of the purely social psychological research that I have of the purely social structural work. It provides a good insight into part of the issue but it ignores an elephant in the room. It’s just that it ignores the other elephant.
 
If you’re interested, though, this is a great example of how social psychological models can be applied to gain insight into why certain groups of people (and certain individuals within groups) might respond in particular reactionary ways that would mystify progressives


ETA: that paper is also particularly good at separating out the symbolic aspects of racism from the resource-competitive aspects, and how they are driven by different things. It’s fascinating for the way it can predict who will support reparations but not multiculturalism, for example, and who will be the exact opposite.
 
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I do want to be clear, like my first post on this, that everything I’ve said about the role of fear in prejudice only stands in addition to everything that has been said about material and political circumstances. I’m not for a moment suggesting that racism and prejudice is just arising from one thing. My point was the very opposite — that you can only understand it when you take it all into account.

Racism/prejudice is irrational.

Fair play to those who can make some sense out of it all.
 
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