Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

I think we’ve actually got a pretty good understanding of the nature of the problem. People are disadvantaged and dispossessed and disenfranchised. They feel powerless and angry. And right wing rhetoric from politicians is being outflanked on social media by far, far, far right rabbit holes that people are tumbling down.
I go back to my first post in this thread and point out that while this is indeed a big part of the nature of the problem, it is by no means the whole of it.
 
In many ways I am really with chilango and danny la rouge on this - no more listening to 'concerns', line in the sand, stop pandering to racists.

Then I remember that my mum definitely has 'concerns' about immigration, picked up from the mileu she lives in (elderly right wing friends), despite on the other hand having lots of friends from different cultures and an absolute hatred of the likes of Farage or Tommy Robinson. People are complicated and capable of believing quite contradictory things or changing from day to day. An awful lot of people can be won back from supporting far right rhetoric. But our current political and media / internet culture makes that a struggle.
 
To be clear, nobody is suggesting that “listening to concerns” is the answer to anything. Having a proper analysis of the psychosocial underpinnings that cause cultural encounters to produce fears that manifest as hate is not done to appease racists, or to fulfil some obligation towards the appearance of consultation. And it doesn’t involve interviewing angry hatemongers, writing down their answers and then changing policy accordingly. In other words, it isn’t about “listening to concerns”. Instead, I’m just pointing out that — whatever individuals might directly say about it — the fear of losing the things that make life and routines familiar is part of what causes the reaction we’re worried about. And if you want to avoid that reaction, you can’t do so by trying to suppress it through force or telling people they’re stupid or ignorant for having it. You need to do something else, which probably involves working through the fears rather than against them.
 
In many ways I am really with chilango and danny la rouge on this - no more listening to 'concerns', line in the sand, stop pandering to racists.

Then I remember that my mum definitely has 'concerns' about immigration, picked up from the mileu she lives in (elderly right wing friends), despite on the other hand having lots of friends from different cultures and an absolute hatred of the likes of Farage or Tommy Robinson. People are complicated and capable of believing quite contradictory things or changing from day to day. An awful lot of people can be won back from supporting far right rhetoric. But our current political and media / internet culture makes that a struggle.
This is the kind of conversational strategy that can work with people like your mum. Listening to worries, sharing one’s own experiences, pointing to real life people they know, and so on. This example is someone canvassing about trans issues in the US, but the strategy translates.



However, how many of those conversations can we have? And with whom can we have them? With the media? With Nigel Farage? With his voters?

I’m not saying don’t bother. I just feel it won’t stop what’s coming.
 
This is the kind of conversational strategy that can work with people like your mum. Listening to worries, sharing one’s own experiences, pointing to real life people they know, and so on. This example is someone canvassing about trans issues in the US, but the strategy translates.



However, how many of those conversations can we have? And with whom can we have them? With the media? With Nigel Farage? With his voters?

I’m not saying don’t bother. I just feel it won’t stop what’s coming.

Yep. And while I'll have these conversations with my mum, and would with some friends/ acquaintances, I've completely withdrawn from the social media battle of ideas, and written off a whole raft of acquaintances to the covid conspiracy pipeline to the far right over the past four years. It's felt like fighting a losing battle. My rational arguments just aren't a match for the larger forces put there driving people towards fascism.

So while on the one hand I do feel like there's a very large pool of wavering people who aren't yet lost to the far right, I do also share your pessimism.
 
What pisses me off is not immigration it's the UK government to make no zero fucking plan of immigrants or assylum seekers.

They are going to keep coming and are economy needs them aging population etc. Where these people are coming from the problems are deep seated and beyond the ability of Uk government to solve. Albaninans can be told it's not worth coming . But AfghanI Iraq, Syria Eritria etc etc that's not an option and with the climitae crisis it's going to get worse
so people are going to keep coming I don't know a massive house building programme and some investment in training so this potential workforce has useful skills and can contribute
 
One of the problems with this "conversational strategy" is the implicit recognition that it is a valid or legitimate discussion to have. How many of us would enter into a conversation about whether the holocaust really happened? Or whether "Jooz control the media"? I wouldn't.

Some ideas deserve no more than ridicule or dismissal. Some of the people holding them likewise.

We all draw a line about what conversations we consider "out of order". My contention is that this line has lurched rapidly rightwards over the last few years. Ideas that would have been (rightly) dismissed out of hand and not worthy of consideration are now mainstream and a "reasonable concern".

I'm with danny la rouge. We need to (re)draw a clear line about this stuff and stop getting dragged rightwards.
 
But, we’ve watched this debate worsen over the last three decades. I date it from when Jack Straw was Home Secretary. That’s when government language started to swing back towards xenophobia. That’s the embryo of the Hostile Environment.

It then kicked up a gear when the Tory opposition decided that it was good PR to be “concerned” and to say the Labour government wasn’t “concerned” enough.

This is probably an over emotional reaction. I may be overreacting. But I’m scared, and I’m allowed an emotional reaction. Maybe I’ll process it in time. I don’t know. But right now, I’m thinking “at what point in the 1920s or 1930s did good people in Germany leave it too late?” Hyperbole? I hope so. But that’s where I am. Please tell me I’m wrong.

I think on the first point it was around the turn of the century. There was a real moral panic around the time William Hague's shambolic opposition released leaflets on BOGUS ASYLUM SEEKERS and it all dated from that. At the time, the tone was seen to be in very poor taste by the vast majority and this aspect of his 2001 "campaign" was widely criticised and derided for simply being too right wing.

It's interesting and sad to see the change in a quarter of a century. The contents of that leaflet are mild compared to some of the deranged rhetoric since 2019 and prior to that the seeping poison of the hostile environment built by both Labour and Tory home secretaries.

I see it as part of the consequences of the dying out of the second world war generation- the generation that actually experienced fascism on its own skin and fought to crush it. Back at the turn of the century the vast majority of the population still hated and derided fascists- then came the BNP's electoral strategy in the first part of that decade with all it's attendant successes. The election of Derek Beackon in 1993 provoked national headlines in every newspaper, all in horrified tones; the same with Burnley at the beginning of the twenty first century, and Dagenham a little later. The blame was put on the horrible white working class for tunring xenopohobic by a middle class liberal press although as i recall the voting demographics were much more complicated and mirrored closely the self made lower middle class shop owner/ self emplyed tradesman or businessman as key to their supporter base.

Now that the generation who fought in 1939-45 are all but gone, they have been replaced by a boomer generation who in the 1960s were fed up of hearing about the sacrificies their parents made in the war, but today in the ranks of Reform UK and other weird far right sectlets almost come across as though they had fought in it. To say nothing of the younger generation whose experience of that conflict is youtube videos and games. As lived experience fades away, in a febrile time politically, the war and its central narrative in stories of Englishness / Britishness becomes a blank canvas that the far right can pour any old shit onto and pass it off as authentic.

My view on immigration is twofold. I have no concerns about people coming here and we as a couple (my wife is a non-EU European) had to negotiate the byzantine complexities of the hostile environment and pay over ten grand just so she could stay here. The level of detail, the booby traps in the forms, the finance required (new entrants for citizenship now have to pay £1500 annually towards the NHS and have NO RECOURSE TO PUBLIC FUNDS stamped on their visas) , the level of evidence required, the fingerprinting and suspicious treament at national borders by the loathsome UK Border Agency, the delays, the uncertainty, are all very stressful and wearing and we were lucky in not encountering major problems. The baffling thing for us is that the vast majority of British citizens are totally ignorant of these processes and have no idea how hard the hostile environment is. They have no clue and many simply don't believe you when you lay out the structural cruelty of the hostile environment. They think because you are in a stable (heterosexual) relationship you just get citizenship in a straightforward process and are stunned when you regale them with stories that some young children in this country think their father or mother is an ipad- becuase that's the only place they can see the, with their parents trapped in the hostile environment maze and obliged to live abroad. God knows what it's like to be an asylum seeker living on less than destitution levels in a cheap B&B somewhere.

The issue is that you cannot prevent people wanting to move for a better life. You cannot prevent people fleeing war or the consequences of climate change. The default "fuck you and your problems, go back to where you came from" is neither humane or sustainable. This is one of the big contradiction of late neoliberalism; harmonising global currency flows to minimise tax liability yet making physical mobility from one country to another much more difficult. The one undermines the other.

On the assumption that immigration not only can't be "stopped" but also will accelerate as climate changes takes giant leaps towards making the planet unliveable, we're going to have to learn to manage immigration properly. I accept that in London and the South East population numbers are over-heated and immigration is one of the pressures on beleagured public services and local government. But, in Scotland, Wales, parts of provincial England, immigrants are actually needed to help keep public and care services ticking over and communities viable. I am in favour of admitting people via a much simpler process based on their capability to contribute to the economy, the community, or both, where they are needed. In turn the people coming here would have to accept being placed in a particular area where they are needed, which is very unlikely to be London, and to control movement requiring them to stay in- let's say- Berwick, or Elgin, or Carmarthen, for a fixed period of time, to do the jobs that are required in more remote places.

The hostile environment rests on a number of false assumptions- that people come here to scrounge off the taxpapyer, for lavish benefits, for an easy life at every else's expense. These lies need to be challenged, exposed and called out at every turn. And with those lies exposed, and the hostile environment rolled back, a new system balancing economic need and our humanitarian obligations needs to be built and supported. Humanitarian obligations will loom much lagrer as the climate emergency gets worse and worse. in this sense "Stop the Boats" and "Immigrants come here to sponge off us" are absolute poison taking us in exactly the opposite direction to where we need to go.

Honestly I'm sick of the lies, the manipulation, the desperation to believe in a parallel reality about immigration. One day we'll realisr that it's here to stay, number will continue to increase, and we have to plan to accommodate people where they are needed and support them on a journey towards becoming a full part of the communities they reside in. The vast, vast majority of immigrants want nothing from us- they come here to work and build a decent life for themselves and theiur family and don't want to take anything from us. The sooner we all realise that the better.

Lastly: acknowledging the complicity of both sides of Westminster in constructing this hateful system, much of the blame lies with Theresa May. Theresa May was always weirdly obsessed with foreigners coming here and is one of the worst sorts of Little-Englander xenophobes ever to reach the top of government. I hope in time and whilst she is still alive she is held to acount for the tens of thousands of lives she ruined, just because she's bizarrely suspicious of anyone not white, middle aged, English, and from the Home Counties.
 
I think we’ve actually got a pretty good understanding of the nature of the problem. People are disadvantaged and dispossessed and disenfranchised. They feel powerless and angry. And right wing rhetoric from politicians is being outflanked on social media by far, far, far right rabbit holes that people are tumbling down.

And the reaction of mainstream politicians and media is to pander to that instead of counter it.

The British state has always been adept at inflaming a kind of class war within the class, whether thats claimants vs workers, black vs white, home owners vs socially housed etc. One of the key ways this is currently seeded within the media is the idea of unfairness - that someone is getting something you're not. In a situation of scarcity this leads to rumours and superstitions about different group, such as migrants, refugees and claimants, which are all egged on by politicians and the press.

I've had countless conversations with people who insist they're not racist but don't think it's fair that their kids can't get a council flat but immigrants just turn up and get given a free home, a car and all kinds of other nonsense. This happens in other areas as well When I worked with street homeless people - mostly older men - a lot of them believed they weren't getting any help because they were 'men' as opposed to the fact that a housing system based on scarcity prioritises people with children who are usually women (and often living in shitty B&Bs or substandard housing with kids to support).

The idea of less eligibility is ingrained in British elite culture (the principle which underpinned the workhouse which insisted that the life of the unemployed or unable to be employed should be less eligible - meaning basically more shit - then the lowest paid worst treated labourer). When so many people feel, like they've been abandoned, and they have, this builds grievances against those in similar situations who are perceived, or rumoured, to be getting some kind of special treatment or privileges. The idea of two tier policing taps into that. And now with social media and political figures actively spreading misinformation and rumours more than ever those grievances have slipped into overdrive and are increasingly mingled with all kinds of elaborate conspiracy theories.

This isn't the whole story of racism by a long way but it is part of it, at least amongst the most economically precarious such as those that might have come out in Rotherham and Hartlepool. Scarcity builds resentment and misinformation transforms that into hatred and a willingness to act. The problem is we can't fix this, at least not in the short term. In fact scarcity is likely to get become even more acute. You can go round having conversations and trying to debunk things all day but you're up against not just a wall of lies and misinformation but a very real sense of rage from people who don't really feel they have much to lose and are constantly looking round for targets to vent their anger on.

But does understanding the material and economic underpinnings of this get us anywhere in the here and now? It's essential in the long term, but as you say people are trying to burn out buildings with people in them now. It feels like we're on the edge of a real crisis which no amount of materialist analysis is going to prevent. There isn't time and we're nowhere near politically strong enough to force the systemic changes necessary. That doesn't mean we should drop it, but I think it means we need to fight, as best we can, to try and turn this around and make racists scared again.
 
Dunno about that.

I think telling racists to get fucked is exactly what we need to be doing right now.
You're willfully not actually adressing what Spy said.
Do you believe anyone that has concerns about how immigration impacts there own sense of a cultural history are racists?
 
There is a huge number of people for whom politics is essentially posh cunts arguing, taking my taxes and telling me how to live. Such people IME don't really care that much about immigration, but 1. their most politically engaged / obsessed friends (online or IRL) keep saying it's a problem, 2. nearly all the mainstream media and all the most popular front pages keep saying there's too much of it, and 3. for the last 14+ years such people as home secretaries and culture secretaries and 'ministers for common sense' keep announcing increasingly severe responses to 'public concerns' about it.

This way, a really very minority concern has been amplified so that swathes of us have come to believe we have 'concerns about immigration' (when our concerns are really about shitty governments) because so many people keep telling us that they do. Who can genuinely be arsed to swim against such a tide?
 
You're willfully not actually adressing what Spy said.
Do you believe anyone that has concerns about how immigration impacts there own sense of a cultural history are racists?
You are wilfully ignoring mine. Which is that after the pogroms, if there are any people with “genuine concerns” who aren’t racist (on which I have my doubts at this point), then I don’t care if they’re offended by the implication they’re racists. They picked a side. The wrong one.
 
You're willfully not actually adressing what Spy said.
Do you believe anyone that has concerns about how immigration impacts there own sense of a cultural history are racists?
How on earth could varying levels of net in-migration to the UK impact upon anyone's "sense of a cultural history"? Presumably, having a sense of cultural history exists, or not, irrespective of migratory trends?
 
You are wilfully ignoring mine. Which is that after the pogroms, if there are any people with “genuine concerns” who aren’t racist (on which I have my doubts at this point), then I don’t care if they’re offended by the implication they’re racists. They picked a side. The wrong one.
I dont think your man in the street sees it as a pogrom rather thinking of it as a riot or protest akin at worst to 2011 rather than a much much darker event, they don't realise it's happened, it's been minimised and this discourse about immigration is part of the minimising while also doubling down on the earlier abuses.
 
I think on the first point it was around the turn of the century. There was a real moral panic around the time William Hague's shambolic opposition released leaflets on BOGUS ASYLUM SEEKERS and it all dated from that. At the time, the tone was seen to be in very poor taste by the vast majority and this aspect of his 2001 "campaign" was widely criticised and derided for simply being too right wing.

It's interesting and sad to see the change in a quarter of a century. The contents of that leaflet are mild compared to some of the deranged rhetoric since 2019 and prior to that the seeping poison of the hostile environment built by both Labour and Tory home secretaries.

I see it as part of the consequences of the dying out of the second world war generation- the generation that actually experienced fascism on its own skin and fought to crush it. Back at the turn of the century the vast majority of the population still hated and derided fascists- then came the BNP's electoral strategy in the first part of that decade with all it's attendant successes. The election of Derek Beackon in 1993 provoked national headlines in every newspaper, all in horrified tones; the same with Burnley at the beginning of the twenty first century, and Dagenham a little later. The blame was put on the horrible white working class for tunring xenopohobic by a middle class liberal press although as i recall the voting demographics were much more complicated and mirrored closely the self made lower middle class shop owner/ self emplyed tradesman or businessman as key to their supporter base.

Now that the generation who fought in 1939-45 are all but gone, they have been replaced by a boomer generation who in the 1960s were fed up of hearing about the sacrificies their parents made in the war, but today in the ranks of Reform UK and other weird far right sectlets almost come across as though they had fought in it. To say nothing of the younger generation whose experience of that conflict is youtube videos and games. As lived experience fades away, in a febrile time politically, the war and its central narrative in stories of Englishness / Britishness becomes a blank canvas that the far right can pour any old shit onto and pass it off as authentic.

My view on immigration is twofold. I have no concerns about people coming here and we as a couple (my wife is a non-EU European) had to negotiate the byzantine complexities of the hostile environment and pay over ten grand just so she could stay here. The level of detail, the booby traps in the forms, the finance required (new entrants for citizenship now have to pay £1500 annually towards the NHS and have NO RECOURSE TO PUBLIC FUNDS stamped on their visas) , the level of evidence required, the fingerprinting and suspicious treament at national borders by the loathsome UK Border Agency, the delays, the uncertainty, are all very stressful and wearing and we were lucky in not encountering major problems. The baffling thing for us is that the vast majority of British citizens are totally ignorant of these processes and have no idea how hard the hostile environment is. They have no clue and many simply don't believe you when you lay out the structural cruelty of the hostile environment. They think because you are in a stable (heterosexual) relationship you just get citizenship in a straightforward process and are stunned when you regale them with stories that some young children in this country think their father or mother is an ipad- becuase that's the only place they can see the, with their parents trapped in the hostile environment maze and obliged to live abroad. God knows what it's like to be an asylum seeker living on less than destitution levels in a cheap B&B somewhere.

The issue is that you cannot prevent people wanting to move for a better life. You cannot prevent people fleeing war or the consequences of climate change. The default "fuck you and your problems, go back to where you came from" is neither humane or sustainable. This is one of the big contradiction of late neoliberalism; harmonising global currency flows to minimise tax liability yet making physical mobility from one country to another much more difficult. The one undermines the other.

On the assumption that immigration not only can't be "stopped" but also will accelerate as climate changes takes giant leaps towards making the planet unliveable, we're going to have to learn to manage immigration properly. I accept that in London and the South East population numbers are over-heated and immigration is one of the pressures on beleagured public services and local government. But, in Scotland, Wales, parts of provincial England, immigrants are actually needed to help keep public and care services ticking over and communities viable. I am in favour of admitting people via a much simpler process based on their capability to contribute to the economy, the community, or both, where they are needed. In turn the people coming here would have to accept being placed in a particular area where they are needed, which is very unlikely to be London, and to control movement requiring them to stay in- let's say- Berwick, or Elgin, or Carmarthen, for a fixed period of time, to do the jobs that are required in more remote places.

The hostile environment rests on a number of false assumptions- that people come here to scrounge off the taxpapyer, for lavish benefits, for an easy life at every else's expense. These lies need to be challenged, exposed and called out at every turn. And with those lies exposed, and the hostile environment rolled back, a new system balancing economic need and our humanitarian obligations needs to be built and supported. Humanitarian obligations will loom much lagrer as the climate emergency gets worse and worse. in this sense "Stop the Boats" and "Immigrants come here to sponge off us" are absolute poison taking us in exactly the opposite direction to where we need to go.

Honestly I'm sick of the lies, the manipulation, the desperation to believe in a parallel reality about immigration. One day we'll realisr that it's here to stay, number will continue to increase, and we have to plan to accommodate people where they are needed and support them on a journey towards becoming a full part of the communities they reside in. The vast, vast majority of immigrants want nothing from us- they come here to work and build a decent life for themselves and theiur family and don't want to take anything from us. The sooner we all realise that the better.

Lastly: acknowledging the complicity of both sides of Westminster in constructing this hateful system, much of the blame lies with Theresa May. Theresa May was always weirdly obsessed with foreigners coming here and is one of the worst sorts of Little-Englander xenophobes ever to reach the top of government. I hope in time and whilst she is still alive she is held to acount for the tens of thousands of lives she ruined, just because she's bizarrely suspicious of anyone not white, middle aged, English, and from the Home Counties.

Good post.

Some British citizens are aware of the hostile environment. I live in area with large afro Carribbean community .

Some I know had relatives who fell foul of the hostile environment.

People who had been here for decades and thought that they were British.

Agree on May and her ilk. In some ways they are worse than out and out racists. As they hide behind I didn't mean hostile environment to be directed at people from ex Empire. Not those people. Which in my opinion is disingenuous bollox.

Hostile environment worked as it was supposed to. As I posted on the riot thread there are certain communities who will never be 100 percent fully accepted

The so called legitimate debate about immigration is really about whose British and whose not.

Black British learnt they will never be fully accepted as part of British community.

That's the lesson the younger black British I know learnt from the Windrush scandal.

It's why I can understand some posters here saying they are fed up with legitimate concerns.
 
The so called legitimate debate about immigration is really about whose British and whose not.

Black British learnt they will never be fully accepted as part of British community.

That's the lesson the younger black British I know learnt from the Windrush scandal.

It's why I can understand some posters here saying they are fed up with legitimate concerns.
A really succinct distillation of so much that passes for 'legitimate debate' about immigration.

That said, I do think that it is legitimate for the left to debate why neoliberal states governed by parties that are ostensibly (politically) anti-immigration appear determined to accelerate rates of net in-migration. That debate should never undermine our fundamental class solidarity with fellow workers, but it is valid to explore and understand this apparent paradox in the ideology and praxis of the UK state over the last 3 decades.

1723921998143.png
 
Are you sure that was full-time? I thought NMW was around £22k now for a 37 hour week. Disgustingly low for a management job though.

A friend works in a care home in Suffolk. She gets a few pence an hour more than most, because she was a senior healthcare assistant and can do some medical stuff that other staff can't, and she's still only on £12.20 an hour. She works a zero hours contract by choice, as it means she can turn down any shifts she doesn't want to do and they can't make her work over never works Christmas.

The place where she works really struggles to get staff, as do all the others in the area. To keep the staffing up to the minimum required, they use a lot of agency staff from South Asia, and the agency charges the home £16+ an hour. If they were prepared to pay £16 an hour to everyone, they might not need the agency staff.

It's a really challenging job, the residents all have dementia and frequently become violent, and most of them are doubly incontinent. A lot of new staff can't hack it and leave after a few shifts, which isn't surprising when they can earn more in Macdonalds or Aldi without doing night shifts or being bitten and punched fairly regularly.

I wouldn't do it for £50 an hour, frankly.
Paying £16.00 an hour to an agency is far far less expensive than paying an employee £16.00 per hour.

Employers PAYE, employers pension contributions etc.
 
In LakieLady's example, that would come out of the £16/hr and be around 10%-20%.

The worker would be getting between £12.80 and £14.40/hr.

I don't know about that individual example but in education, if the teacher gets £!40 a day, the agency get £140 a day too. 100% mark up. Half that for T.As - the wage, not the mark up.
 
How on earth could varying levels of net in-migration to the UK impact upon anyone's "sense of a cultural history"? Presumably, having a sense of cultural history exists, or not, irrespective of migratory trends?

Not to mention of course that current in-migration, like all which has gone before, is (or will be) an important element of our ongoing, emergent 'cultural history'. I mean cultural history, like 'tradition', isn't a perfect thing that's finished and done, it all keeps evolving with each new generation anyway.
 
Last edited:
This is the kind of conversational strategy that can work with people like your mum. Listening to worries, sharing one’s own experiences, pointing to real life people they know, and so on. This example is someone canvassing about trans issues in the US, but the strategy translates.



However, how many of those conversations can we have? And with whom can we have them? With the media? With Nigel Farage? With his voters?

I’m not saying don’t bother. I just feel it won’t stop what’s coming.


This reminds me I've been getting something cropping up I my fb feed from Praxis, about how to talk to people about X. Might have been immigration, and something else. Similar to this. I also remember seeing a similar video where doorsteppers talked about their personal experience of having an abortion.

E2a think it was this.

 
Last edited:
I don't know about that individual example but in education, if the teacher gets £!40 a day, the agency get £140 a day too. 100% mark up. Half that for T.As - the wage, not the mark up.

You'd know better than me in education mate, but in software engineering we expect to pay agency fees of about £100-£120/day for senior developers on £500-£700/day.

For an agency to be taking more, for teachers on a fraction of that, seems extraordinary.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom