Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[Spymaster]

What I mean is I’m done listening. I’m done trying to get pieces of paper from the “German chancellor”. I’m at the point of saying, OK, we know what we’re up against and it’s gone past the point of trying to win over those on the margins.

Here are the barricades. Which side do you pick? Which side do I pick?

That’s how I’m feeling.

I can understand the emotion but it's not helpful as any kind of proposed solution, is it? There are always going to be racists but many of those on the fringes can be reasoned with. Ignoring them isn't the way forward is it?

 

[Spymaster]

Oh, and the line in the sand was people trying to burn down refugee hostels.

If I was going to draw a line, it would be way before that.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Are you sure that was full-time? I thought NMW was around £22k now for a 37 hour week. Disgustingly low for a management job though.

A friend works in a care home in Suffolk. She gets a few pence an hour more than most, because she was a senior healthcare assistant and can do some medical stuff that other staff can't, and she's still only on £12.20 an hour. She works a zero hours contract by choice, as it means she can turn down any shifts she doesn't want to do and they can't make her work over never works Christmas.

The place where she works really struggles to get staff, as do all the others in the area. To keep the staffing up to the minimum required, they use a lot of agency staff from South Asia, and the agency charges the home £16+ an hour. If they were prepared to pay £16 an hour to everyone, they might not need the agency staff.

It's a really challenging job, the residents all have dementia and frequently become violent, and most of them are doubly incontinent. A lot of new staff can't hack it and leave after a few shifts, which isn't surprising when they can earn more in Macdonalds or Aldi without doing night shifts or being bitten and punched fairly regularly.

I wouldn't do it for £50 an hour, frankly.

A lot of the immigrant staff will also have to endure a relentless barage of racist abuse.

I don't think dementia makes you racist, I think it makes a lot of people forget that they're supposed to keep their racism to themselves. Care homes and dementia wards are a sorry picture of what we'd be in for throughout society if we took away the social stigma against racism. Which is exactly what we run the risk of if we respond to racist atrocities by listening nicely to the fascinating ideas and opinions of people who aren't quite racist enough, yet, to join in with a pogrom. I'm more interested in listening to the concerns of people and communities who are under direct threat of violence from those ideas and opinions.

 

[danny la rouge]

I can understand the emotion but it's not helpful as any kind of proposed solution, is it? There are always going to be racists but many of those on the fringes can be reasoned with. Ignoring them isn't the way forward is it?

Ignoring them? No. But I feel they’ve been appeased for far too long. Now I just want to tell them, actually fuck you, we’ve got your number.

 

[danny la rouge]

If I was going to draw a line, it would be way before that.

It’s already too late, then?

 

[xenon]

If I'd ever met anyone with 'concerns about immigration' who wasn't just using them as a fig leaf for a pre-existing emotional reaction to the idea of people a bit different from them moving in down the street, I might agree with you.

The same information is available to everyone. Immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out. With the UK's demographics as they are, society would soon grind to a halt without immigrants propping up the birth rate and boosting the numbers of working-age people. There are many unsafe places in the world and we have an obligation under international law and basic moral decency to provide a safe home and a chance at a new life for some of the people who have no safe choice but to leave their home countries. None of that is a secret. Some people don't hear it because they don't want to, they just want an excuse to be a hateful cunt and they prefer bad information from bad faith actors because it gives them that excuse.

Weren't you moaning about old immigrants from other parts of the UK moving to the SW though? Of course the lack of affordable housing etc, etc but that didn't stop you having a pop at a particular demographic who moved to your area.

Point is all well and good siting stats about the economy but that means fuck all to someone in some grim town that sees there chance of getting a council house slip even further away as around them seems to be an influx of people who do not look or perhaps talk like them but still need housing, schools etc.

Are those people not worth talking to, engaging with where possible?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Well, now Farage has a foothold in Westminster, his party is polling higher as a result of the pogroms, and the Tories are in turmoil. They’d already gone harder right. And now I fear a real possibility of a realignment between Farage and the Tory right. Will Starmer last more than one term with the press already painting him as a lefty despite him being further right than most Tory governments of the last 100 years?

Where is this going? At what point do we stop “listening” and start marking our line in the sand

5 years of Starmer will hugely strengthen the right. Millions are already disengaged/feeling disenfranchised/have worked out that capitalism is presiding over competing identity groups.

Starmer is merely going to further confirm and reinforce the irrelevance/toxicity of the state and, as we know from France, his brand of elite liberalism drives millions more towards the periphery and the populists.

I don’t blame anyone for feeling despair/fear at where we are headed by the way. One look at the state of our side is enough to generate that…my own line in the sand is a now near total disengagement from the left and more engagement with the people I work with and live by, football mates etc. Less social media more real world. Less debating the bubble and more debating those not involved politically.

Ordinary people, when you can sit and talk, give me hope.

 

[danny la rouge]

I’m l


5 years of Starmer will hugely strengthen the right. Millions are already disengaged/feeling disenfranchised/have worked out that capitalism is presiding over competing identity groups.

Starmer is merely going to further confirm and reinforce the irrelevance/toxicity of the state and, as we know from France, his brand of elite liberalism drives millions more towards the periphery and the populists.

I’m afraid I agree. I’m seeing a Far Right government in 5 years’ time. By which time climate change will have worsened, and the reaction will be more authoritarian government, not less.

I don’t blame anyone for feeling despair/fear at where we are headed by the way. One look at the state of our side is enough to generate that…my own line in the sand is a now near total disengagement from the left and more engagement with the people I work with and live by, football mates etc. Less social media more real world. Less debating the bubble and more debating those not involved politically.

Ordinary people, when you can sit and talk, give me hope.

I agree. Honestly I don’t meet people who echo the right wing press. I just don’t. And that’s not because I’m in a middle class liberal bubble. I live in Maryhill. I’m not very mobile due to chronic ill health, but I speak to ordinary people. And they’re really, really not reacting to Southport the way the fascists wanted.

But I’m genuinely scared of where we’re going. Despite what I’m experiencing around me, we still have aright wing media who approved of the Rwanda scheme. A Labour government who only ruled it out in technicalities and are still prepared to consider “offshoring” refugees. And we have pogroms in the streets and people trying to burn refugees alive.

I’m not in the mood to still be considering “legitimate concerns” when people are being led to concentration camps.

What can I do as a 59 year old people with disabilities? I don’t know. Maybe hide people in my flat.

 

[kabbes]

This thread has very quickly got very male, with its leap to, “yeah! But what am I supposed to do about it?! I don’t care, I just want to do something!”

I don’t know what we do about it. I just know that any action will fail if it doesn’t start by properly understanding the nature of the problem. You can go and shout at the clouds if it makes you feel better, but don’t mistake that for productivity.

 

[ska invita]

Racism definitely reduced between 1990-2000mids.....why and how? was it because of endless reasoned conversations about immigration?

 

[kabbes]

Honestly I don’t meet people who echo the right wing press. I just don’t. And that’s not because I’m in a middle class liberal bubble. I live in Maryhill. I’m not very mobile due to chronic ill health, but I speak to ordinary people. And they’re really, really not reacting to Southport the way the fascists wanted.

But I’m genuinely scared of where we’re going. Despite what I’m experiencing around me, we still have aright wing media who approved of the Rwanda scheme. A Labour government who only ruled it out in technicalities and are still prepared to consider “offshoring” refugees. And we have pogroms in the streets and people trying to burn refugees alive.

Start from your first fact. People are resisting and will resist anti-human ideas. From that, conclude that we will only go where you’re scared of us going if the right manage to sufficiently overcome people’s natural tendency to be kind. So how do we stop them doing that?

 

[kabbes]

Racism definitely reduced between 1990-2000mids.....why and how? was it because of endless reasoned conversations about immigration?

I can’t imagine how the world might have changed between 2000 and now. Complete mystery.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Start from your first fact. People are resisting and will resist anti-human ideas. From that, conclude that we will only go where you’re scared of us going if the right manage to sufficiently overcome people’s natural tendency to be kind. So how do we stop them doing that?

Introduce consequences, proportional to the consequences of their actions for innocent people.

 

[redsquirrel]

Are they all racists? I'm genuinely not sure anymore. On a personal level I don't think I got any more "benefit of the doubt" left to give.

...but even if many of those with "concerns about immigration" weren't racist, they are absolutely increasing the legitimacy and social reach of those who are.

I get you at the personal level.
But politically if we are putting anyone who has 'concerns about immigration' (whatever that actually means) into the racist camp then that is a hell of a lot of the working class (probably a majority).

I'd agree that most the concerns about immigration act against class struggle and solidarity, but that is true of all kinds of ideas under capitalism. Surely the history of our movement has showed us that movement has been most successful when workers organise together despite many workers holding views we might consider regressive. And that struggle can produce solidarity and change views.

I guess I'm not sure what you arguing organisationally?

 

[danny la rouge]

I don’t know what we do about it. I just know that any action will fail if it doesn’t start by properly understanding the nature of the problem.

I think we’ve actually got a pretty good understanding of the nature of the problem. People are disadvantaged and dispossessed and disenfranchised. They feel powerless and angry. And right wing rhetoric from politicians is being outflanked on social media by far, far, far right rabbit holes that people are tumbling down.

And the reaction of mainstream politicians and media is to pander to that instead of counter it.

And now, in the summer of 2024 we have people trying to burn refugees alive.

I’m sorry if me wanting to do something makes me male. But actually I don’t know what I can do. When things get really bad I might be able to harbour people seen as Muslim. Or secretly distribute anti fascist propaganda around the city.

 

[chilango]

I get you at the personal level.
But politically if we are putting anyone who has 'concerns about immigration' (whatever that actually means) into the racist camp then that is a hell of a lot of the working class (probably a majority).

I'd agree that most the concerns about immigration act against class struggle and solidarity, but that is true of all kinds of ideas under capitalism. Surely the history of our movement has showed us that movement has been most successful when workers organise together despite many workers holding views we might consider regressive. And that struggle can produce solidarity and change views.

I guess I'm not sure what you arguing organisationally?

I'm not arguing organisationally. I'm not in a position to do that.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm not arguing organisationally. I'm not in a position to do that.

I don’t think the left is either. Organised anarchism certainly isn’t.

 

[chilango]

I get you at the personal level.
But politically if we are putting anyone who has 'concerns about immigration' (whatever that actually means) into the racist camp then that is a hell of a lot of the working class (probably a majority).

Yep. It's an uncomfortable truth we might have to deal with.

I'm optimistic enough, though, to still believe that those who "have concerns about immigration" are a minority, albeit a vocal and empowered one.

 

[chilango]

Also, whilst I don't think anyone is doing this here, let's be very careful not to conceptualise "the working-class" as white and culturally conservative.

 

[Dystopiary]

Racism definitely reduced between 1990-2000mids.....why and how? was it because of endless reasoned conversations about immigration?

The corporate media were busy scapegoating other people? It was single mothers for a while. That didn't work all that well in the end as more middle class people got divorced/didn't get married in the first place before having kids. They keep stirring antipathy towards people on benefits, and that works to an extent, but maybe because so many people know someone who can't work because of disability or mental health issues*, it's not going as well as they'd like.

Maybe that was it.

*The cm also know that's only going to increase because of increasing poverty, collapsing NHS, and other reasons I'm too tired to go into.

 

[Dystopiary]

Also, whilst I don't think anyone is doing this here, let's be very careful not to conceptualise "the working-class" as white and culturally conservative.

Or male.

 

[krtek a houby]

I’m afraid I agree. I’m seeing a Far Right government in 5 years’ time. By which time climate change will have worsened, and the reaction will be more authoritarian government, not less.

Yep. Been gravely concerned about it for quite some time. Not just in the UK, but widespread. It will be fortress Europe and other wealthy nations doing their very best to keep out the millions who will be displaced.

Got some ridicule for half joking about future PM Farage, but if not him, the pressure will be on for someone to step up to be the "strong man" or "strong woman".

There's those who believe that it couldn't happen in their country... but the pogroms witnessed last week - nobody really expected them either, did they?

 

[Dystopiary]

Something we(?) can do is listen to younger people. All this "Aren't Gen Z (it was millennials a minute ago) weird/spoilt/other" is at best unhelpful. Lots of them are great and have sound ideas, but also, they'll mostly be around when we aren't.

 

[ska invita]

I can’t imagine how the world might have changed between 2000 and now. Complete mystery.

In my experience (several carribean family members in my close family + general awareness of atmosphere and observations) in London anti-racism has continued to get better and better up to the present day... Black Lives Matter was an important moment that again in my experience has changed some things noticably for the better

But one aspect of this period we live in now is polarisation and a lot of energy going into fostering reactionary attitudes. All that anti-woke mind virus stuff is a direct counteraction to genuine advance in progressive attitudes. Male rights bullshit is a reaction to popular feminist advances.

I presume what you are talking about kabbes is solely economics....remember mid 90s was deep recession and crime was high...murder rate peaked in early 2000s IIRC....but racism was fading a bit throughout that era. It was culture and particularly grassroots culture that changed that, and the 90s were building on what had been built in the 80s and to a lesser extent the 70s.

 

[redsquirrel]

Yep. It's an uncomfortable truth we might have to deal with.

I'm optimistic enough, though, to still believe that those who "have concerns about immigration" are a minority, albeit a vocal and empowered one.

Depends on what concerns means of course but polling* seems to indicate a plurality, if not necessarily a majority, have some level of conservative views on immigration.
I mean this poll from a year ago has a plurality agreeing that 'the level of immigration' is too high. https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_Immigration_Since_Brex_230605_W.pdf

*and yes there are all kinds of issues with polling, but even so

 

[chilango]

I'm old enough to remember the horror with which we reacted to the 1992 attacks in Rostock.

 

[danny la rouge]

Also, whilst I don't think anyone is doing this here, let's be very careful not to conceptualise "the working-class" as white and culturally conservative.

Absolutely. Spot on. Because that’s part of the problem.

 

[danny la rouge]

Depends on what concerns means of course but polling* seems to indicate a plurality, if not necessarily a majority, have some level of conservative views on immigration.
I mean this poll from a year ago has a plurality agreeing that 'the level of immigration' is too high. https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_Immigration_Since_Brex_230605_W.pdf

*and yes there are all kinds of issues with polling, but even so

I’ve been on the YouGov panel for many years, and the way the questions are posed already take it as read that immigration is A Problem. And frankly conflate immigration with refugees in small boats.

But that’s not to quibble with the figures. It’s to point out where the hegemonic “common sense” is.

 

[redsquirrel]

But that’s not to quibble with the figures. It’s to point out where the hegemonic “common sense” is.

Yeah. And how peoples views on immigration - which may be more nuanced and complex - are re-structured into becoming concerns about immigration

 

[kabbes]

In my experience (several carribean family members in my close family + general awareness of atmosphere and observations) in London anti-racism has continued to get better and better up to the present day... Black Lives Matter was an important moment that again in my experience has changed some things noticably for the better

But one aspect of this period we live in now is polarisation and a lot of energy going into fostering reactionary attitudes. All that anti-woke mind virus stuff is a direct counteraction to genuine advance in progressive attitudes. Male rights bullshit is a reaction to popular feminist advances.

I presume what you are talking about kabbes is solely economics....remember mid 90s was deep recession and crime was high...murder rate peaked in early 2000s IIRC....but racism was fading a bit throughout that era. It was culture and particularly grassroots culture that changed that, and the 90s were building on what had been built in the 80s and to a lesser extent the 70s.

You don’t remember 11/9/2001 and the sociopolitical tsunami that it precipitated?