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If god exists, would you worship him?

Divine Spark doesn't really explain anything, though I think it pretends to. It's like saying We Work By Magic (anyone decides to call their band that, I want a cut of the merch)

Anyway I'm going to add here something I wrote once which is of dubious relevance but whatever.



''Here
, is me. Me is you, it's the same for each one. Each one of us. But I, me – that is to say you – is where it begins.''

What?

''Everything. It all begins at I – you – so feel that, feel your self .. that is not the wind, the salty sting, the water splashing and spraying, not the wood we sit on nor the ropes, the cloths nor the canvases. Not the creak of rope or wood nor sigh of breeze nor thump of canvas; not the stink of tar and must, wood, weeds, shellfish nor anything you hear calling from the sky.

''But Notice it all. Notice it all. Be among it. Allow it to vibrate and hum around you. Now, by noticing it, understand that it is not you. Not I. It is other.''

And your voice? Is other, to me.

''Yes. My voice is not you, nor is it me .. it's a voice, a guide on a path we follow, guided by the voice that calls us on. Follow it for now, as will I. It'll lead us both away from ourselves, and back again, to an I that is me, that is, you. Will you follow the voice with me?''

Yes. I will follow.

''Now .. now feel your breath. Feel your heart beating. Feel your stomach gurgle, your mouth produce its spit, the muscles of your throat swallowing. These things are in your body.

''Feel yesterday's food filling your belly low down, settling and ready to be pushed out come morning; feel the water in your bladder, do you need to empty it?

Yes.

You could. Or you could not. Because that digestion, like those breaths in those lungs and that blood in those veins – it's not you – it's in your body. That body which is a vessel, that carries some you inside it, somewhere. Put the body aside, it is not you, it is not me. It is not I. It is other.

''Are you cold?''

Yes.

''Put it aside. Neither the cold nor your feeling of cold, is you, me. It is not I. Are you tired?

I .. I don't know.

Then your feeling of tiredness is not you. If it were you, then you would know, immediately. No feelings are you .. nor me. I is not in feelings; feelings are in the body and they are for the body and its safety, benefit, survival. We feel cold, so we warm ourselves or we die. We feel hungry, so we feed ourselves or we die. We feel danger so we fight, or run away – or we die. We feel sad, so we find something to make us happier, or we become ill. We feel angry so we find a way to calm down, or we hurt ourselves – or somebody else. Something happens and we feel confused, so we try and find out more before we speak or act, and the event passes as a positive experience.

''But I am not my sadness, and you are not your anger, and we are not our confusion. These are feelings, produced by a body to benefit its existence and situation. All these things we can see, feel, smell, hear, any state of mind – we observe them as if they happen to us, so they cannot be us.

''There can be no I, no individuality in sadness, anger, confusion or any other feeling, because everybody feels them. Where is the I that observes? Where is it? ''I am, you are .. I is .. inside the sea, air, wind, spray, salt, inside the flesh, heart, guts, brain, fear, confusion, wonder, joy – all those things, those many, many things. None of those things are I.

''Therefore, we put them all aside. There; there – aside.

''Now, here – here, now!

''Here – not out there – not those things, not that world, not that body, not those feelings. We have put them aside. Now, here.

''Here - I. Feel I, inside all the other.''

''Now – say nothing.

''Stop listening.

''Just be: I.''



tl;dr, How can we look for God when we don't even know our own selves?
 
God gets the blame for all the man made shit in the world....we fuck up and get the luxury of waving fists at God..and saying things like, "If there really is a God then why are people starving and dying...why is there so much hate and violence?" "Why does God let these things happen?".
Yet we are the ones who allow people starve. We allow violence and war. We vote in leaders who use war for the sake of peace. We turn a blind eye to corrupt governments who let their own people starve. Humans are fucked up...and then they blame religion or god.

So we destroy God...but we are still in a fucked up world full of fucked up people fucking up the planet. Nothing changes.

If there is a God...then the disappointment in us must be huge.

Nope , he loves us . Despite our aversion to dignity .
 
Something like half of all life on this planet (including humanity IMO) is parasitic. Did Bog really design it that way?
 
Something like half of all life on this planet (including humanity IMO) is parasitic. Did Bog really design it that way?
The most abundant multicellular animal on earth is the nematode worm. There's way of them than any other multicellular creature, so chances are God is actually a microscopic worm. Either that or he just really likes worms.
 
The most abundant multicellular animal on earth is the nematode worm. There's way of them than any other multicellular creature, so chances are God is actually a microscopic worm. Either that or he just really likes worms.

Why are these planets, especially the moon to the earth so crazily and perfectly aligned to us as they ARE? Also,care to explain the moment, from us being apes, and then suddenly becoming thinking humans? If you have some kind of scientific explanation for both of these lets hear them.
 
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Why are these planets, especially the moon to the earth so crazily and perfectly aligned to us as they ARE? Also,care to explain the moment, from us being apes, and then suddenly becoming thinking humans? If you have some kind of scientific explanation for both of these lets hear them.

We didn't suddenly become humans, we evolved over a period of time.
 
Why are these planets, especially the moon to the earth so crazily and perfectly aligned to us as they ARE? Also,care to explain the moment, from us being apes, and then suddenly becoming thinking humans? If you have some kind of scientific explanation for both of these lets hear them.
Those are both excellent questions cheesy, let me address them separately.

You are quite right to note the amazing set of characteristics that has produced a solar system & home planet so seemingly perfectly tuned for life as we know it. If just one event in a long sequence of events spread out over the history of our planet had happened differently, we might not be here at all. However, the fallacy here is to assume that the particular sequence of events in our cosmic history is the only one that could have resulted in intelligent life. Whilst there's probably an infinite number of possible histories that do not result in a planet capable of supporting intelligent life, there is also probably a sizeable number of different possible histories that do. We just happened to live on a planet that followed one of the "successful" histories, rather than one of the unsuccessful ones. Had we followed a different "successful" history, we might look different, sound different, maybe not be intelligent life in the form we see around us today, but we would nonetheless use our intellect to look back at our unique path through time and say to ourselves "isn't it amazing how lucky we are to have followed this one specific history?".

With regard to when the moment was that we switched from being apes to thinking humans - there was no "moment". Nature does not work that way. It's a sliding scale, not an abrupt transition. Much as we see very different levels of intelligence in other animals, the intelligence of hominids has existed at many different levels throughout our history. We didn't suddenly wake up clever one morning, the changes were incremental & subtle. Current anthropological theory suggests that the path from our ape ancestors to modern humans was nothing like as simple as is often assumed. It wasn't a simple path, but a hugely branching tree with many evolutionary dead ends. It's also arrogant to assume that intelligence, especially abstract thought, is solely the purview of humans. Other species, such as dolphins, have been shown to have a very high level of intelligence - displaying characteristics of complex cognition, memory recall & abstract reasoning. One might as well ask the question: "When was the moment dolphins switched from stupid to intelligent?". Most likely there was no moment, just a gradual transition over time - that's how evolution tends to work. Abrupt, dramatic changes in the space of a generation are very much the exception, not the rule.
 
The most rational basis for which to worship a God is based on the contention that we are likely to be in a simulation. The sim creator may well be looking for humanity to progress in science and reason, or they may be hoping we maintain or even increase our degree of religiosity. If the former is true, then a bit of worshipping on the side is unlikely to be seen as an impediment to progress in the sciences. If the latter is true then then it's win win all around.
 
Divine Spark doesn't really explain anything, though I think it pretends to. It's like saying We Work By Magic
Exactly right. It explains nothing. It's simply the statement that we exist. As long as it doesn't go any further than that, I have no problem with it. But religions always go further than that. Otherwise they'd be stuck in a Wittgensteinian silence.
 
Why are these planets, especially the moon to the earth so crazily and perfectly aligned to us as they ARE?

It doesn't fit us, we fit it. We grew upon it, that's why it appears so perfect for us. You might as well ask, "Why is the sun so perfectly placed to warm us and not burn us up?" You're putting your cart before your horse.
 
Too vague and dodges how language developed.
Do you think we need language to think?

Which comes first, the thought or the word? Language is a powerful tool that helps us to think (and can get in the way of thought sometimes), but it is not thought itself. Temple Grandin has a theory about the thinking of other animals, which is that they think like she does, in pictures - and that meanings in such a thought system can be constructed by associating different pictures with each other. She may or may not have that right, but she will contend very forcefully that a lot of her own thought is non-verbal. Many people do. Others appear to be very verbal, to the extent that they identify thought with language.

Another theory, should you want one, is that the origin of our idea of gods comes from the appearance of language in our thoughts, which at first was not so readily identified as 'us'. Nowadays we are in the habit of identifying the inner monologue as 'us', although various states of consciousness that we would today consider to be fractured and forms of mental illness will see other constructions.

But do we lose our 'souls' when the inner monologue is quiet? Or are those the moments when we feel at our most conscious - our most alert, 'in the zone' and alive?
 
Those are both excellent questions cheesy, let me address them separately.

You are quite right to note the amazing set of characteristics that has produced a solar system & home planet so seemingly perfectly tuned for life as we know it. If just one event in a long sequence of events spread out over the history of our planet had happened differently, we might not be here at all. However, the fallacy here is to assume that the particular sequence of events in our cosmic history is the only one that could have resulted in intelligent life. .

Well no one assumed that. The incredible coincidental circumstances of earth's perfect alignment with the moon is a great mystery. I saw Chris Hadfield speak about this just last week.

With regard to when the moment was that we switched from being apes to thinking humans - there was no "moment". Nature does not work that way. It's a sliding scale, not an abrupt transition. Much as we see very different levels of intelligence in other animals, the intelligence of hominids has existed at many different levels throughout our history. We didn't suddenly wake up clever one morning, the changes were incremental & subtle. Current anthropological theory suggests that the path from our ape ancestors to modern humans was nothing like as simple as is often assumed. It wasn't a simple path, but a hugely branching tree with many evolutionary dead ends. It's also arrogant to assume that intelligence, especially abstract thought, is solely the purview of humans. Other species, such as dolphins, have been shown to have a very high level of intelligence - displaying characteristics of complex cognition, memory recall & abstract reasoning. One might as well ask the question: "When was the moment dolphins switched from stupid to intelligent?". Most likely there was no moment, just a gradual transition over time - that's how evolution tends to work. Abrupt, dramatic changes in the space of a generation are very much the exception, not the rule.

Thats evolution and of course things happened gradually and slowly. Still does not explain the development of language - and you do not know whether there was indeed a 'moment' during evolution, in fact, you have no idea. No scientist has ever been able to definitively answer this question with certainty and you havent either. Thanks for your responses, by the way.
 
Well no one assumed that. The incredible coincidental circumstances of earth's perfect alignment with the moon is a great mystery. I saw Chris Hadfield speak about this just last week..
You are looking at this backwards. Earth's circumstances are not extraordinarily well adapted for us. We are extraordinarily well adapted for it.

btw what exactly do you mean by 'perfect alignment'?

Given that the Moon is moving away from us by about 4 cm a year, is that perfect alignment achieved this year, or was it last year, or will it be next year?

ETA:

If what you mean is that the Moon is roughly the same size as seen from Earth as the Sun (and it is only roughly, not exactly, and both Moon and Sun change apparent size over time as their distances change), that seems a remarkably unremarkable coincidence to me. So what? What bearing has this fact had on the development of life on Earth? If some theory of life's development depended on this being the case, then that observation might be noteworthy.
 
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It depends
Should the supposed creator return 900 ft tall and laying waste and death on the unbelievers I will immediately prostrate myself and weep for salvation
On the other hand, should the fucked up idiot who, in some deranged starving twat in cave imagined brought us all this fuck up, returned in normal size - kick the daft twat to death
 
Thats evolution and of course things happened gradually and slowly. Still does not explain the development of language - and you do not know whether there was indeed a 'moment' during evolution, in fact, you have no idea. No scientist has ever been able to definitively answer this question with certainty and you havent either. Thanks for your responses, by the way.
How would you explain the development of language? What explanation would you find satisfactory?

There is much evidence to suggest that non-human primates use a form of language, dolphins are famed for their communication skills, even bees communicate in a sense. Are you similarly vexed about when bees developed communication?

The only overt way of identifying when language emerged is to find preserved evidence, in the form of markings of some kind. However this is problematic due to the lack of preservation and the more pertinent observation that spoken language most likely predates any written or pictographic form.

Paul Broca did a lot of early research into how language works in the brain, particularly with reference to neural structures identifiable in the skull that may be present in ancient bone artefacts. Although I suspect the most that that kind of research can uncover is a "before language" and "after language" phases, and as with most evolutionary changes, it's more likely the transition was a gradual change over time, rather than an abrupt switch.
 
How would you explain the development of language? What explanation would you find satisfactory?

There is much evidence to suggest that non-human primates use a form of language, dolphins are famed for their communication skills, even bees communicate in a sense. Are you similarly vexed about when bees developed communication?

The only overt way of identifying when language emerged is to find preserved evidence, in the form of markings of some kind. However this is problematic due to the lack of preservation and the more pertinent observation that spoken language most likely predates any written or pictographic form.

Paul Broca did a lot of early research into how language works in the brain, particularly with reference to neural structures identifiable in the skull that may be present in ancient bone artefacts. Although I suspect the most that that kind of research can uncover is a "before language" and "after language" phases, and as with most evolutionary changes, it's more likely the transition was a gradual change over time, rather than an abrupt switch.
Careful geeze, you is slippin close to Witgentosser territory......;):cool:
 
The most rational basis for which to worship a God is based on the contention that we are likely to be in a simulation. The sim creator may well be looking for humanity to progress in science and reason, or they may be hoping we maintain or even increase our degree of religiosity. If the former is true, then a bit of worshipping on the side is unlikely to be seen as an impediment to progress in the sciences. If the latter is true then then it's win win all around.

I'm calling it, this or something like it will become an actual religion in the future if we still have computers. I've already run across wannabe cult leaders on Facebook trying to start it up ahead of time.

Other possibilities include Scientology evolving into a mainstream faith and the spread of the idea that God exists because [nonsense based on a misunderstanding of quantum mechanics].

That's if civilisation doesn't collapse - in which case the survivors could have a different religion about a time when large parts of the world were hypnotised by a world-spirit that manifested as a glowing surface before one's eyes - or if humans don't become extinct in the meantime.

Ain't the future grand! :thumbs:
 
if there is something we might call 'god' and miraculously, against all the available evidence, the point of view I call 'me' somehow survives death, I'll stand up straight and stick by my lack of belief..

If there was somehow incontrovertible proof that God existed, but you stuck by your lack of belief - that would make you like a member of the Flat Earth Society.
 
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