Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

[Treacle Toes]

my point was that you chose to address DA's arguments as 'the impasse' on a frankly shit thread- where it was pointed out to him that he was using identitarian arguments to make a tit of himself while ostensibly opposing such? I mean reams and reams of writing he did....

.

TBF ska invita has given other examples. DU's was just an extreme and obvious one. The whole 'Us Vs Them' labelling is very much the same dynamic.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's not about how you see it though LBJ...that well roundedness isn't being measured by you. It's being done by Unis, those offering internships and employers etc... it gives people the edge/opportunities. Those things are valued.

Yes. And I'm not denying the sense of entitlement aspect. It's puddle-deep, though, isn't it. But yes, as chilango says, enough to reproduce itself - but not by providing value; if anything by the opposite, by providing a way of tricking the casual or careless observer into thinking there is more value there than there is.

One other point here, in terms of working out the value added by private education, is that kids of rich parents tend to do well wherever they go to school. Plenty of high-performing state-sector schools get filled with the children of parents who can afford the local house prices or are motivated and able to work the system. So a true picture would need to compare those outcomes. Said children with rich parents in the state sector will share many of the advantages of their private-school contemporaries in terms of out-of-school activities, social capital, ability to apply for internships, etc.

 

[DotCommunist]

TBF ska invita has given other examples. DU's was just an extreme and obvious one. The whole 'Us Vs Them' labelling is very much the same dynamic.

and it cuts both ways. Largely on this thread I think a decent job has been made at discussing these matters in good faith. Dare I say it, in a comradely fashion. I've not contributed a great deal because I have little to add but I have been reading it. So if we can agree that not everyone is a New Statesman journo lecturing people they know nothing about and not everyone is shouting 'class!' like its top trumps or some shit, we get a productive discussion. At least I think its getting somewhere...

 

[Treacle Toes]

and it cuts both ways. Largely on this thread I think a decent job has been made at discussing these matters in good faith. Dare I say it, in a comradely fashion. I've not contributed a great deal because I have little to add but I have been reading it. So if we can agree that not everyone is a New Statesman journo lecturing people they know nothing about and not everyone is shouting 'class!' like its top trumps or some shit, we get a productive discussion. At least I think its getting somewhere...

Okay you reasonable sod!

/racks up a couple of shots of rum.

 

[redsquirrel]

youre misinterpreting my position, i hope not willfully.
the behaviours are listed in this thread. they clearly are behaviours in that they are not true of all people active within an area of identity politics

I'm certainly not attempting to misinterpret your position. If you think I have tell me where.

But when you say

Dannys run-on identitypolitics is a sin bin for all the shittest bits of Identity Politics

you are factual wrong. Yes examples of behaviours have been given - but they are just that examples to assist the understanding of the definition. People have been quite clear that when they are talking about identitypolitics they don't just mean shitty behaviours, they mean a political theory.

Is the bit of Gender Identity Politics that came up with the word Cis in opposition to class politics? I say no.

I specifically mentioned fundamental opposition, i.e. are they in opposition as ways of understanding the world. Or

Can class and ID politics actually be allied? They seem to offer two very different ways of viewing the world, and two very different solutions.

That doesn't mean they have to disagree in every instance, re-read post 637.

Its clear to me it a positive thing. Is it Identity Politics? 100%. You cant get more politics dealing with identity than that.

See, you still seem to be confused about what identitypoltics is. Changes/additions to language to make it more inclusive or less discriminatory do not have to be done in the framework of identitypolitics. It's not identitypolitics for me to recognise that the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander comrades in my old union decided that they preferred that term to Indigenous and that, thus as a comrade I should respect their wishes. Likewise as danny said on the cis thread, it's quite clear that an inclusive term meaning non-trans would be both useful and frankly just polite. That's not identitypolitics, that solidarity.

 

[ska invita]

my point was that you chose to address DA's arguments as 'the impasse' on a frankly shit thread- where it was pointed out to him that he was using identitarian arguments to make a tit of himself while ostensibly opposing such? I mean reams and reams of writing he did....

so that there was where you said 'this is it, the impasse', to the caricature. (I've long said intersectionalism is 'counting yer blessings' really- simplistic take but thats where I see a use. Hang on a minute am I throwing my weight around here without even meaning to? etc)
I do think that there is some resistance to that self reflection, or can be- being the saint I am I am immune to such things obviously.
In general I can tell you this- not one, not one person I know would take kindly to being told they are privileged by someone of the middle classes. Can and do take it from people whove walked in my shoes and the other shoes I don't wear (thats a bit of a tortured metaphor but allow it). M8 after me moaning about a nicking 'yeah you're lucky you aint black' wrt the lip I was giving (greatly exaggerated to make me appear more of a hero, but I did cheek a bit)
simple stuff really. and then of course you can take it to situations where the Labour Party expels a well known anti-zionist jewish historian. When we talk aout how this sort of discourse has been captured, this is the sort of thing. Corbyn was called a misogynist for not having enough women in his shadow cabinet. Yvette Cooper more or less said 'I'm a progressive choice because I'm a woman'. Not that we should bin everything, but certainly its necessary to examine how we get to the point where right wing tories are happy to parade LGBTQ credentials while crushing the poor and if you oppose them its either 'abuse' or homophobia or what have you- for those that don't think the far right can use it, how do they explain the centre right doing so?

rambling thoughts. Its been good reading anyway and I've always time for such, so enjoy yer weekend and we'll pick it up later.

agree with your post, but just to make clear I'm not saying responses like Uberdogs are THE Impasse but contribute to the dynamic of it....making it hard to move on. Some people really don't like to hear the positive/constructive/challenging things that come out of ID politics, born of experiences that only people of that certain identity can share and elaborate on.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Likewise as danny said on the cis thread, it's quite clear that an inclusive term meaning non-trans would be both useful and frankly just polite. That's not identitypolitics, that solidarity.

tbf a lot of people said that. I'm still a bit taken aback by how that thread went, but yes, I agree with you that it isn't id politics, precisely because it is not intended to be divisive or set up barriers, despite what far too many people said on that thread.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Likewise as danny said on the cis thread, it's quite clear that an inclusive term meaning non-trans would be both useful and frankly just polite. .

Why are you only attributing this opinion to danny when it's a position held by most of the contributors on that thread?

 

[redsquirrel]

tbf a lot of people said that. I'm still a bit taken aback by how that thread went, but yes, I agree with you that it isn't id politics, precisely because it is not intended to be divisive or set up barriers, despite what far too many people said on that thread.

Why are you only attributing this opinion to danny when it's a position held by most of the contributors on that thread?

I just mentioned danny as he made the point very clearly and in an early post in the thread that stuck in my mind. But yes plenty of others said similar.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I thought you were all about the stacking.

Stacking the bodies of liberals like cordwood.

 

[seventh bullet]

Nah, he was making a dig. He does it every so often. I take it all as a compliment.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

dialectician Its too much to type out word for word, but the tweets are by someone called Spookanie@McKellogs. Key bits are
"The University of Pennsylvania is issuing a press release condemning me and my teaching practices"
"I tweeted about evening the disparities in the classroom with a pedagogical technique called progressive stacking"
"Because this involves calling on Black students more than white men the white nationalists and Nazis were very upset"
"The engaged in doxing &I have screenshots of every stage of their mission that they tweeted publicly, to dogpile the uni saing I'm racist"
She gave Penn admin these screenshots.
"Penn thinks I'm racist and discriminatory towards my students for using a very well worn pedagogical tactic which includes calling on POC"

Cheers, never heard of it (progressive stacking) before.

Honestly don't know how to respond to this, whilst i agree with many points in the thread you can't deny that universities are spaces of white dominance - history from the victors perspective etc, but then you could say they are places of middleclass dominance as well, in terms of ideology and knowledge acquisition that is... These discussions seem to always lack a proper materialist definition of unis as workplaces and businesses. Hence you rarely get people talking about the majority of PoC in the institutions doing jobs such as Cleaning...

What does she teach?

Also it would be helpful if we knew if her definition of PoC was only restricted to black and hispanic americans and excluded Middle Eastern/Chinese/Indian Americans etc.

tbf my patience with the concept is starting to wear thin.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Nah, he was making a dig. He does it every so often. I take it all as a compliment.

An academic having a dig at a manual worker’s job gets to slide where the colour of your students is of paramount importance.

 

[Idris2002]

Stacking the bodies of liberals like cordwood.

They won't bring him happiness, mind.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nah, he was making a dig. He does it every so often.

I know. He's insecure around those who toil with their hands.

I take it all as a compliment.

As you should!

 

[ViolentPanda]

They won't bring him happiness, mind.

Only if he forgets to stack his cordwood as well.

 

[Pickman's model]

Stacking the bodies of liberals like cordwood.

being tidy's a nice trait it shows a good spirit

 

[Idris2002]

I know. He's insecure around those who toil with their hands.



As you should!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Now now, don't get in a paddy!

 

[Idris2002]

Now now, don't get in a paddy!

Oh, no one's in a paddy, believe me.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Honestly don't know how to respond to this, whilst i agree with many points in the thread you can't deny that universities are spaces of white dominance - history from the victors perspective etc, but then you could say they are places of middleclass dominance as well, in terms of ideology and knowledge acquisition that is... These discussions seem to always lack a proper materialist definition of unis as workplaces and businesses. Hence you rarely get people talking about the majority of PoC in the institutions doing jobs such as Cleaning....

Don't disagree with any of this, but I also don't see how any of it is addressed by 'progressive stacking'. Any black students in the class of an elite uni are in the same world as their white classmates, not in the world of the black cleaner who comes in after class to tidy up. So by all means, unis should have a long hard look at what they're teaching and how they're teaching it, but the relevance of this concept to this thread would seem to me to be that it is an egregious example of mistaken id politics, in which a person's place in society is judged by the colour of their skin. I would think it would also make a lot of people very uncomfortable if they twigged that they were getting special treatment in class purely on the basis of the colour of their skin. It's underpinned by some pretty horrible essentialist views of race.

 

[Idris2002]

Any black students in the class of an elite uni are in the same world as their white classmates, not in the world of the black cleaner who comes in after class to tidy up.

The Boston Globe link I gave you - which you obviously didn't read - demonstrates that this is by no means true in all cases. E.g.:

"WHEN ANA BARROS first stepped into Harvard Yard as a freshman, she felt so out of place she might as well have had the words “low income” written on her forehead. A girl from Newark doesn’t belong in a place like Harvard, she thought, as she marveled at how green the elms were, how quaint the cobblestone streets. Back home, where her family lives in a modest house bought from Habitat for Humanity, there wasn’t always money for groceries, and the world seemed gray, sirens blaring at all hours. Her parents, who immigrated to the New York area from Colombia before she was born, spoke Spanish at home. It was at school that Barros learned English. A petite 5-foot-2 with high cheekbones and a head of model-worthy hair, Barros found out in an e-mail that she’d been accepted to Harvard — a full scholarship would give her the means to attend. “I knew at that moment that I’d never suffer in the way that my parents did,” she says."

What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school? - The Boston Globe

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Boston Globe link I gave you - which you obviously didn't read - demonstrates that this is by no means true in all cases. E.g.:

"WHEN ANA BARROS first stepped into Harvard Yard as a freshman, she felt so out of place she might as well have had the words “low income” written on her forehead. A girl from Newark doesn’t belong in a place like Harvard, she thought, as she marveled at how green the elms were, how quaint the cobblestone streets. Back home, where her family lives in a modest house bought from Habitat for Humanity, there wasn’t always money for groceries, and the world seemed gray, sirens blaring at all hours. Her parents, who immigrated to the New York area from Colombia before she was born, spoke Spanish at home. It was at school that Barros learned English. A petite 5-foot-2 with high cheekbones and a head of model-worthy hair, Barros found out in an e-mail that she’d been accepted to Harvard — a full scholarship would give her the means to attend. “I knew at that moment that I’d never suffer in the way that my parents did,” she says."

What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school? - The Boston Globe

But she says it herself: “I knew at that moment that I’d never suffer in the way that my parents did,”. Surely she felt so out of place precisely because she was entering the same world as her rich classmates.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The Boston Globe link I gave you - which you obviously didn't read - demonstrates that this is by no means true in all cases. E.g.:

"WHEN ANA BARROS first stepped into Harvard Yard as a freshman, she felt so out of place she might as well have had the words “low income” written on her forehead. A girl from Newark doesn’t belong in a place like Harvard, she thought, as she marveled at how green the elms were, how quaint the cobblestone streets. Back home, where her family lives in a modest house bought from Habitat for Humanity, there wasn’t always money for groceries, and the world seemed gray, sirens blaring at all hours. Her parents, who immigrated to the New York area from Colombia before she was born, spoke Spanish at home. It was at school that Barros learned English. A petite 5-foot-2 with high cheekbones and a head of model-worthy hair, Barros found out in an e-mail that she’d been accepted to Harvard — a full scholarship would give her the means to attend. “I knew at that moment that I’d never suffer in the way that my parents did,” she says."

What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school? - The Boston Globe

But this can be true regardless of skin hue?

 

[Idris2002]

But she says it herself: “I knew at that moment that I’d never suffer in the way that my parents did,”. Surely she felt so out of place precisely because she was entering the same world as her rich classmates.

No, she says that in relation to the point when she received her offer of a scholarship. She's not talking about her experiences in the classroom or in a campus surrounded by those "rich classmates". And if you bother to read the whole thing you'll see several cases of people who do not fell part of the same world as her rich classmates. As for whether the "progressive stack" idea could remedy this, my guess is probably not: but I also think you've got this one badly wrong.

 

[Idris2002]

But this can be true regardless of skin hue?

Of course it can. A French woman I know told me once about how her dad lasted a week at the elite French uni he was admitted to, because he was surrounded by people (18 or 19, the same age as him) who dressed and talked like they were in their 50s and 60s, and the whole thing made his skin crawl.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No, she says that in relation to the point when she received her offer of a scholarship. She's not talking about her experiences in the classroom or in a campus surrounded by those "rich classmates". And if you bother to read the whole thing you'll see several cases of people who do not fell part of the same world as her rich classmates. As for whether the "progressive stack" idea could remedy this, my guess is probably not: but I also think you've got this one badly wrong.

This is where the id politics aspect muddies the waters. When she completes her degree, she will leave as a Harvard graduate and many opportunities will open up to her. That's why she is in the world of her classmates rather than the cleaner.

 

[Idris2002]

This is where the id politics aspect muddies the waters. When she completes her degree, she will leave as a Harvard graduate and many opportunities will open up to her. That's why she is in the world of her classmates rather than the cleaner.

You're assuming that she will complete her degree, regardless of the social isolation she's experiencing.

 

[campanula]

The Boston Globe link I gave you - which you obviously didn't read - demonstrates that this is by no means true in all cases. E.g.:

A petite 5-foot-2 with high cheekbones and a head of model-worthy hair,

What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school? - The Boston Globe

Entire article utterly invalidated as hopeless fluff with some faux outrage thrown in...unless I am not seeing deeper levels of irony somewhere.

 

[Idris2002]

Entire article utterly invalidated as hopeless fluff with some faux outrage thrown in...unless I am not seeing deeper levels of irony somewhere.

How is it invalidated?