DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
its probably good practise in getting used to some middle class tosser assigning you a privilege quotient.
Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.
- Thread starter danny la rouge
- Start date
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It is always a mistake taking you off ignore. I thought you might have something useful to contribute on a thread like this, but no, you're just being your usual cuntish self and trying to put me down. The study I'm talking about was produced by Bristol Uni and the Sutton Trust in 2010. Look it up.
Now back to ignore.
Treacle Toes
Time
Hmmmm...no it may not save them but they were still called on more and seemingly favoured by tutors IME.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
The type of statistic that the BNP used to make hay. And as has been said, within the logical framework of identitypoltics it's hard to see how it can be argued against.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
strange...nothing in association with bristol on the sutton research site Research Archives - Sutton Trust
but there is a study published in conjunction with nfer... is that the one you meant?
or is it this one by Anthony Hoare & Ron Johnston (2011) Widening participation through admissions policy – a British case study of school and university performance, Studies in Higher Education, 36:1, 21-41; both authors in the school of geographical sciences at bristol.
incidentally, littlebabyjesus, the article makes no mention of teaching to the test, despite your saying this was the case above. one cock-up after another
good stuff, littlebabyjesus, put me on ignore so you don't have to face up to being caught out again
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redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
I largely agree with this but I do agree with LBJ that teachers/lecturers do need to be aware that despite their positive intentions they may have some unconscious biases.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The idea there being that a lazy tutor will favour the most confident students, I guess. My experience of uni is skewed by the fact that I went in my mid-20s. I found that those of us who were a bit older tended to be the ones who spoke up. We also tended to be the ones actually interested in the subject.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
.
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ska invita
back on the other side
Sorry for slow response redsquirrel, not able to keep up with urban at the mo. Conversations like this have a lot of subtlety and take up a lot of time which I cant give right now to the back and forth. Also I see things are moving on in the the thread, so sorry to jump back.
Anyhow:
In the OP Danny tried to create a new term identitypolitics, which to me is for people who are involved in Identity Politics (dictionary definition) who have fallen into some shit behaviours, and in some cases may be as part of a deeper shit ideology as you suggest.
It was necessary to restate all that in the Cis thread because Uberdog (IIRC) was making a very good and not uncommon example of one the key areas of Impasse. Cis is a word that has arisen positively and necessarily from Gender Identity Politics. He was absolutely livid about being labeled in a way he previously hadn't (missing the irony that so much Identity Politics arises exactly from people having identities forced upon them by society). The anger in response to having to endure a new label quickly turned into a All Identity Politics is shit thrashing out. In the carnage of that I was trying to step back and redefine that it isn't all shit - far from it - as in that example of Cis arising from Gender Identity Politics. Its a good thing, its very useful to our understanding of gender and personal identity, and also the power dynamics around that.
Sometimes these shit behaviors might be the actualisation of a narrow, self-centered, no class/power-understanding ideology, but not always. Sometimes people haven't thought things through fully, or get wrapped up in cultures of their peers. Hard to talk about without concrete examples (of which there are nowhere near enough of on this thread I think).
The case I've been trying to make on this thread is to help get over the Impasse.
One part of that is to get away from the US vs Them, allergic reaction to anything to do with (dictionary definition) of Identity Politics, and make camps that alienate people doing good politics by stripping away any grey areas.
Related to that is to recognise that some of the things that come out of Identity Politics, or even identitypolitics, genuinely challenges us all, but especially challenge white well-educated cis men living in the country of their birth etc etc and not to dismiss that challenge outright with a cry of Class! Thats exactly what Uberdog did and its not uncommon. There is a reactionary side to the positive challenges of Identity Politics that needs critiquing too.
(sorry cant answer responses to this post as tied up for rest of the weekend now)
Anyhow:
My points in the Cis thread do not contradict what you are saying. Yes there is a problem about talking at cross purposes and terminology. My definition of Identity Politics is the one you will find in any political dictionary: a broad range of liberation/oppression struggles formed around personal experience/identity.
In the OP Danny tried to create a new term identitypolitics, which to me is for people who are involved in Identity Politics (dictionary definition) who have fallen into some shit behaviours, and in some cases may be as part of a deeper shit ideology as you suggest.
It was necessary to restate all that in the Cis thread because Uberdog (IIRC) was making a very good and not uncommon example of one the key areas of Impasse. Cis is a word that has arisen positively and necessarily from Gender Identity Politics. He was absolutely livid about being labeled in a way he previously hadn't (missing the irony that so much Identity Politics arises exactly from people having identities forced upon them by society). The anger in response to having to endure a new label quickly turned into a All Identity Politics is shit thrashing out. In the carnage of that I was trying to step back and redefine that it isn't all shit - far from it - as in that example of Cis arising from Gender Identity Politics. Its a good thing, its very useful to our understanding of gender and personal identity, and also the power dynamics around that.
No you misunderstand me: to my mind Dannys run-on identitypolitics is a sin bin for all the shittest bits of Identity Politics. Im not defending that, Im in agreement a lot of the behaviours listed so far are problematic (exactly how common they are and where they take place is another matter).
Sometimes these shit behaviors might be the actualisation of a narrow, self-centered, no class/power-understanding ideology, but not always. Sometimes people haven't thought things through fully, or get wrapped up in cultures of their peers. Hard to talk about without concrete examples (of which there are nowhere near enough of on this thread I think).
The case I've been trying to make on this thread is to help get over the Impasse.
One part of that is to get away from the US vs Them, allergic reaction to anything to do with (dictionary definition) of Identity Politics, and make camps that alienate people doing good politics by stripping away any grey areas.
Related to that is to recognise that some of the things that come out of Identity Politics, or even identitypolitics, genuinely challenges us all, but especially challenge white well-educated cis men living in the country of their birth etc etc and not to dismiss that challenge outright with a cry of Class! Thats exactly what Uberdog did and its not uncommon. There is a reactionary side to the positive challenges of Identity Politics that needs critiquing too.
(sorry cant answer responses to this post as tied up for rest of the weekend now)
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Das Uberdog provided people with an argument they wanted to have because he is a clown. 'this is the impasse' you said. Not really, its a ex swappie dick mouthing.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
I don't have time to read this myself unfortunately.strange... it doesn't appear to be on the sutton trust website Research Archives - Sutton Trust
whch isn't surprising as it wasn't anything to do with the sutton trust and it wasn't 2010.
Anthony Hoare & Ron Johnston (2011) Widening participation through admissions policy – a British case study of school and university performance, Studies in Higher Education, 36:1, 21-41; both authors in the school of geographical sciences at bristol.
incidentally, littlebabyjesus, the article makes no mention of teaching to the test, despite your saying this was the case above. one cock-up after another
But I am curious. Was this result obtained by comparing students at the same university or at different universities? I assume it was just Bristol? I am wondering if those private school kids who don't make it to an elite uni are the ones who get out-performed.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it was just at bristol. when i was younger - and it may have changed now - bristol was famously the favoured destination of private school pupils rejected by oxford or cambridge. whether that has any bearing on the results, i don't know.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Ah thanks. I thought so. To be honest, I couldn't think we're Bristol was in the uni pecking order. I'm not sure still still tells us anything particularly interesting about students in general then.
AllEternalsHeck
Active Member
I've spent a lot of time in university classrooms and never noticed any pattern that it is the white, male student who dominate discussion. If I've noticed any pattern it's middle-class and posher students who seem to have more confidence in the importance of their contributions. I've been in classes where people who'd be top of this progressive stack have dominated the discussion, just down to their individual personalities.
I've always had a difficult time joining in class discussions. I have to psych myself up to say something. I'd be at the bottom of the stack by their calculations.
I've always had a difficult time joining in class discussions. I have to psych myself up to say something. I'd be at the bottom of the stack by their calculations.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I read it years ago, and now can't find a link to the actual study. I have linked to it on here in the past, so that link will still be there hopefully. It is mentioned in this article, which cites similar studies that found similar results.
So to answer your question, yes, it was just Bristol Uni students, but similar results have been found elsewhere - at Cardiff and Oxford Brookes, so a bit of a range in terms of the institution's status. To my knowledge neither of the Oxbridge universities has done a study like this on themselves. If they have, I would be very interested to see it. My guess would be that they would follow a similar pattern to all the other places that have looked at this question. I see no particular reason why they wouldn't.
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AllEternalsHeck
Active Member
They kind of are, as they can jump on examples like this and gleefully discredit the left as being anti-white etc. I'm sure they are enjoying the opportunity.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
My lecturer (the source of the graph I posted up thread as it happens) was talking about this last night. The idea being that given that "disadvantaged" pupils face obstacles all the way through their education journey - from early years right up to Uni and beyond - any that make it into Uni will have had to struggle that bit harder, and prove themselves that bit more, at every step of the way than their more privileged counterparts.
AllEternalsHeck
Active Member
I found at uni there are a lot of very average students from posh backgrounds.
ska invita
back on the other side
disagree - i think his reaction is not uncommon, even if expressed in different ways.
Lots of people don't like the challenge that Identity Politics can bring up. You could argue that a lot of the young alt-right/mens activist types are a reaction to the genuine challenges of ID politics, but that suggests its an issue only on the right. Challenging patriarchy/sexism/racism/transphobia and so on within the left can also creates some strong reactions, even if the response isn't as vocal .
Theres a dynamic going on where out of the current wave of wider identity politics challenges to power people are reacting negatively to that challenge, clawing back, and both sides can become entrenched in defensive positions.
Ultimately your argument DC is "hes just a dick mouthing off" - why not apply that to dickish identitypolitics people too? They're just dicks, lets ignore them to?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
tbh there's lots it doesn't tell us. study after study demonstrates that spending time studying in the library improves degree performance, regardless of what sort of school you went to. do people who went to public schools use libraries less than their counterparts from state school backgrounds? are the people who go to the fortismeres of this world bumping up the state school stats? fortismere, in leafy muswell hill, does rather better at a level than many public schools. and eton, despite its eminence, doesn't do as much as you'd expect for the money to prepare its alumni academically, the social cachet of going there likely does rather more for them
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
The definition that danny used in the OP is not new. It's one that critics of identity politics have been using for some time and is well recognised. I'd argue that you are the one using the term wrongly, see your previous confusion on this thread that struggles against racism/sexism are necessarily identitypolitics. But regardless within this thread identitypolitics has been defined.
No you've misunderstood me (and others). I'm not talking about the "shit behaviours", I (and most of the other posters on the thread) are talking about the politic, the ideology of identity politics. We, as socialists, consider it at best an insufficient analysis and at worst actively harmful.
You've claimed that identitypoitics is a positive thing, you also seem to think class politics is a good thing. Now many posters on this thread see the two in opposition (at the fundamental level). So I'm asking you if you disagree that that they are in opposition, and if so why?
Treacle Toes
Time
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think there are a few strands to this, one of which is the kind of education offered at many private schools. The schools stand or fall on their exam results, generally, and the numbers they get into university. That's what the parents are paying for - to sharp-elbow their kids to the front of the queue. So they get the results but not the education, and they are then found out at university level, where they can no longer be spoon-fed and taught to the test.
ska invita
back on the other side
youre misinterpreting my position, i hope not willfully.
the behaviours are listed in this thread. they clearly are behaviours in that they are not true of all people active within an area of identity politics
Is the bit of Gender Identity Politics that came up with the word Cis in opposition to class politics? I say no. Its clear to me it a positive thing. Is it Identity Politics? 100%. You cant get more politics dealing with identity than that. Does everyone involved in Gender Identity Politics think that "the most oppressed person in the room knows the most about fighting oppression" or "that you know how 'oppressed' someone is by their stated identity (even worse, it sometimes comes down to their visible identity) ". No. These are the behaviours of a subset of people. How big this group is, and where they go on with themselves, Ive no idea as Ive never actually experienced it happening.
Really out now.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
my point was that you chose to address DA's arguments as 'the impasse' on a frankly shit thread- where it was pointed out to him that he was using identitarian arguments to make a tit of himself while ostensibly opposing such? I mean reams and reams of writing he did....
so that there was where you said 'this is it, the impasse', to the caricature. (I've long said intersectionalism is 'counting yer blessings' really- simplistic take but thats where I see a use. Hang on a minute am I throwing my weight around here without even meaning to? etc)
I do think that there is some resistance to that self reflection, or can be- being the saint I am I am immune to such things obviously.
In general I can tell you this- not one, not one person I know would take kindly to being told they are privileged by someone of the middle classes. Can and do take it from people whove walked in my shoes and the other shoes I don't wear (thats a bit of a tortured metaphor but allow it). M8 after me moaning about a nicking 'yeah you're lucky you aint black' wrt the lip I was giving (greatly exaggerated to make me appear more of a hero, but I did cheek a bit)
simple stuff really. and then of course you can take it to situations where the Labour Party expels a well known anti-zionist jewish historian. When we talk aout how this sort of discourse has been captured, this is the sort of thing. Corbyn was called a misogynist for not having enough women in his shadow cabinet. Yvette Cooper more or less said 'I'm a progressive choice because I'm a woman'. Not that we should bin everything, but certainly its necessary to examine how we get to the point where right wing tories are happy to parade LGBTQ credentials while crushing the poor and if you oppose them its either 'abuse' or homophobia or what have you- for those that don't think the far right can use it, how do they explain the centre right doing so?
rambling thoughts. Its been good reading anyway and I've always time for such, so enjoy yer weekend and we'll pick it up later.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Its not just exam results though that the posh schools deliver.
It's staff whose job it is to manage Oxbridge applications, to craft UCAS statements etc.
Its the raft of extra-curricular activities that don't just look good on CVs but strengthen networks, that build self-confidence, resilience, that contribute to the "well rounded character" that opens so many doors. The sense of entitlement that is palpable. The aura of "belonging" at University.
Its having the social capital to take the "risk" of a higher education route, without worrying about abandoning the "security" of other routes into "trades" or vocational training.
Its having the economic security to accept debts running into £10ks as a means to an end.
Not needing to be spoon-fed is scant consolation in the face of all this, and in the face of the knowledge that your disadvantage is going to carry on even after graduation.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
out of curiosity how do you explain that it's not just independent schools but grammar schools too?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Not denying anything you say here, in particular the bit about uni applications. And I know you put the bold bit in inverted commas, but it strikes me how bad private education is at doing this, generally, given all the advantages you would think it should have. It does the opposite - produces far too many undergraduates who haven't learned how to think for themselves.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I could've put "thoroughly splendid chap" in instead for greater emphasis
. Regardless, it's the self-reproducing processes at work.
Treacle Toes
Time
It's not about how you see it though LBJ...that well roundedness isn't being measured by you. It's being done by Unis, those offering internships and employers etc... it gives people the edge/opportunities. Those things are valued.
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