Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.
- Thread starter danny la rouge
- Start date
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Where did I say I thought it was valid?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Do you?
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Have I stopped beating my wife, you mean?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Do you agree with her assertion that progressive stacking is "a very well worn pedagogical tactic"?
That's the aspect of this issue that I'm posting about.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Need a bit more info to make proper sense of that. If the overall percentage of 'White British' that are eligible for free school meals is lower than that for some of the other groups, we may have a correlation/causation problem.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Indeed. I think we're always going to run into problematic ground when trying to slice up cohorts like this.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
When I was working as a teacher I quickly realised that some students answered more readily than others, were more confident and articulate and able and willing. Consequently I would consciously ask the less confident students more questions and the more confident students less questions (as they would tend to answer anyway if no answer came from elsewhere)
A good teacher does this anyway IMO, I don't see why it should be racialised.
A good teacher does this anyway IMO, I don't see why it should be racialised.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
And the aspect of the issue that I'm posting about is that a bunch of far-right scum appear to have been granted, on a plate, the power to influence hiring and firing at a United States university. They must be fukcing wanking themselves senseless over that one.
I don't think "progressive stacking" is a "very well worn pedagogical tactic". I do think it's a real attempt to deal with a real problem: and I think you've let your distaste for the liberal politics of those who adopt it blind you to something you ought to be a tad more concerned about.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
If it occurs in a racialised environment, like that in the United States, it will be racialised regardless of the intentions of those who do it.
Treacle Toes
Time
So it isn't necessarily a good example at all? Why post it then? I think you'd have left it to stand as 'evidence' without comment about potential problems if LBJ hadn't said anything.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Maybe, but that appears to be a post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc situation. A good teacher will be varying their engagement to take account of levels of confidence and willingness. Put it in racist terms and it looks like a race issue but that doesn't mean it actually is a race issue till some academic comes along and says it is.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
One cannot just say "pedagogy" and expect that alone to give ones assertion validity.
(In any case, I'd argue a university lecturer should be more concerned with andragogy).
(In any case, I'd argue a university lecturer should be more concerned with andragogy).
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I agree on both of those points. Of course I'm concerned that the far-right are wielding power like this. But on a thread about "identity politics" it's not necessarily the aspect of this case that i want to dicsuss.
I also agree that progressive stacking is an attempt to deal with a real problem. I'm not sure it's the answer, nor am I sure that it's proponents have quite got the problem right. But that's open for discussion. Which is what I'm trying to do.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Example of what? Evidence of what?
It's merely an indicator of the difficulties in this kind of thing...
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Except in a highly racialised society like the United States.
Treacle Toes
Time
Oh come off it. You posted it without comment as some kind of POW evidence. You had no intention of pointing out the potential shortcomings
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Oh come off it. You posted it without comment as some kind of POW evidence. You had no intention of pointing out the potential shortcomings
You're a mind reader now? C'mon...
Treacle Toes
Time
IME teachers/educators will use a variety of 'methods/approaches' in their teaching. Using a method doesn't necessarily mean the teacher believes said method alone if the overall 'answer'.
AllEternalsHeck
Active Member
Yeah you're right I was talking about a UK further education college. US style idpol liberalism is widespread in the UK and the same flawed assumptions are equally damaging here.
AllEternalsHeck
Active Member
To describe it as a 'well worn pedagogical technique'... then a few tweets later be like 'does anyone have any references I can use to prove this is evidence-based pedagogy'. Begs the question why are you using it if you hadn't seen the evidence first (which doesn't actually seem to exist given some of the flimsy sources being provided).
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Even in ivy league university classrooms? Everyone there has done very well at school. Most will have rich families. A small number will have done very very well at school and not have rich families, but they're all extremely unlikely to come from deprived backgrounds.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Here in the UK, there is evidence the other way on this stuff as well - kids from state schools do better at uni than kids from private schools with the same A-level grades. Bristol uni did a big study on it - to predict degree class, you need to knock off a whole grade from a private school kid: three Bs equals on average three Cs from a state school kid. To me that is evidence that, at uni level at least, there is unlikely to be a need for progressive stacking - the relative privilege of the kids who were taught to the test at private schools is found out at university level, where they sink back.
Yep. I don't teach but train visually impaired adults. If I notice someone's being quiet, possibly strugglying, you spend more time with them. Hell, don't most of us do this in social settings too. If you know someone present is not known by the rest of the group try and involve them in the conversation a bit more etc.
I didn't know I was being pedagogwhatsit.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
What's more likely? That a braying ponce like Toby Young is going to admit to himself "hey, I've been found out", and pull his neck in, or that he'll try even harder to throw his weight around in the classroom, in suitably braying tones?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh. this would doubtless be the one reported in the oxford review of education a couple of years ago not conducted by anyone from bristol.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
ask him to produce this study.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Toby Young? I don't have his number.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
As a result of that study, Bristol Uni intended to introduce a system that made different offers depending on the school you were coming from. There was outrage from certain quarters and I think they backed down. But what this result means is that if, let us say, a particular course requires three Bs, then the private school kids with three Bs will be in a classroom with, on average, significantly more able kids from state schools with three Bs. And those state school kids will go on to get better marks than them. No amount of braying saves them.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Yeah, you'd think, wouldn't you?
What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school? - The Boston Globe
The use of the progressive stack idea seems to be rooted in stuff bell hooks wrote about her experience as a student who was not only black but working class. In the hands of those who have taken it up, it seems to have been stripped of that class orientation.
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