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Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

Yes, I agree that a radical feminist approach is required and a focus on legal equality alone is insufficient.
When you say "a radical feminist approach is needed" do you mean Radical Feminism*? Or did you mean radical in the more general sense of progressive/positive?

I ask because RF is perhaps one of the more extreme examples of the identity politics problem this thread is talking about.

* Radical feminism - Wikipedia
 
Posts #626 and #627 make my views clear. I don't like capitalised political terms with fixed meanings and I don't generally like the wiki pages that refer to them. Life is more complex.
 
Thesis: Any effective socialism requires (is dependent on) women's liberation (for those who like to put things in boxes: radical feminism)

Antithesis: Any effective feminism requires (is dependent on) a class analysis (for those who like to put things in boxes: social feminism)

Synthesis: You need both. Setting one against the other means both fail.

Meta analysis: Boxes are not particularly useful. And that wiki article is crap.
 
Liberation is a word very common in '70s eg Gay Liberation, Womens Lib etc. Well before the concept of ID politics which I've only ever heard of recently and only ever here on Urban.
I am referring to how "liberation" is generally perceived by ID politckers today, in 2017. One of those words that has become somewhat stripped of its meaning over the years.

Some of us can't wait for the complete overthow of the capitalist system before being granted the 'liberation' of not being sacked/arrested/ beaten up/ discriminated against.
I never said that. On the contrary, I acknowledge that the rights of oppressed groups need to be fought for in the here and now, not just waiting on some abstract 'revolution' to make it all disappear.

I think any kind of conspiritorial talk is suspect, not just from idpolitikers - and of course in its most overt and nastiest form it can directly be a tool of antisemitism, islamophobia, resurgent fascism and antiblackness (though I concede I'm not as knowledgeable on that one...) I think this is the way to challenge such things. Of
course the problem is despite thinking we live in a liberal tolerant society these attitudes boil under and from my own perspective as a visually impaired child of immigrants (admittedly from a now upwardly mobile middle class family) the general insulation of post-1980s immigrants creates this weird kind of double consciousness where you might be labourite in the UK because they tend to be less overtly islamophobic but as concerns back home, it is nationalism as usual.
See also: The scandal regarding some Labour councillors and postal votes in various Asian communities (notably in Birmingham) a few years back.

When said countries foster these methods of conspiritorial thinking for their own interests it becomes a ballache and a half presenting anything counter to that. I think with my generation, the post-2010s university generation that is, they feel estranged (rightly) from their parents still latent 'make enough money and then return/invest back home' perspective but heavy atomisation means that they see the way to approach politics as the outsider. There's a difference ime between that and blatant careerists who you get in unis. I mean, do we approve of blatantly entryist Oxbridge trotskyists who say nice things about workers and freedom of movement but then remain utterly silent when labour councils like haringey and Lewisham sell off public housing? When it was under labour rule that atos work capability assessments were established (and predecessor the benefits integrity project of 98.) When it was the lp that were the flag bearer of detention centres. Personally, Give me someone who is just a pissed off non-white person over these sorts of hacks any day (and i fully acknowledge that PoC is more a sociological category than a meaningfully political one...)
Until recently the "traditional" left has been very slow to adapt to the realities of neoliberalism, applying tactics and implementing strategies that are stuck in the 70s, if not earlier, and tending to be oblivious to how things are now, and continuing to do things that way because "it's how we have always done this". This of course excludes all manner of people, and is almost inevitably dominated by white, middle-aged men. Whereas it takes say, for example, a "pissed-off non-white person" to be able to expose that and shake things up. Like you I get quite annoyed with "radical" left groups that talk the talk but don't walk the walk, and I am definitely up for holding dodgy Labour councils (or dodgy councils of any stripe) to account for their actions.

Who argues this? Revolutions, like class are messy, contradictory affairs that whilst being cataclysmic aren't just some neat godly providence of history affair where we achieve the kingdom of heaven. I don't think anyone has argued that capitalism won't be around for a while.
I am harking back to earlier days on these boards, where "revolutionaries" were much more vocal, and I had started to go right off the idea - and a lot of my political beliefs of now would have been dismissed as "reformist" by many on here in the past. Old habits die hard.
 
ska invita - Cross posted from the clusterfuck that is the 'Cis' thread so that it's not buried in the heap of shit that is that thread.
Agree, and thats the thing, for me the term Identity Politics <snip>- its a word that broadly categorises a range of liberation/anti-oppression struggles.
OK, why do you think this? Personally I don't think that's an accurate summary of identitypolitics. But regardless, poster after poster has repeatedly said that that isn't what they are talking about when they talk about identitypolitics, moreover it quite clearly isn't what the OP is referring to. A well known book extract containing Humpty Dumpty springs to mind.

Agree, and thats the thing, for me the term Identity Politics is not a bad thing, in most cases its a good thing* - its a word that broadly categorises a range of liberation/anti-oppression struggles.

But within that there are a whole subset of negative behaviours which some people project on to identity politics in all cases. Using Cis as an insult is one such negative behaviour. The gender-politics it comes from is a positive thing.
But the criticisms on this thread, and others, aren't just directed at the behaviours, they are directed at the ideology, the whole political approach. The fact is that identitypoiltics is a political approach that some of us, as socialists/communists/anarchists, consider fundamentally at odds with a class based political approach. Now you may think we are wrong but people quite clearly are not just talking about behaviours. Re-read the OP it is talking about a political ideology.

You've said that you consider identitypolitics a good thing, ok then I'll ask you the question that's been asked repeatedly across a number of threads and never received an answer
Can class and ID politics actually be allied? They seem to offer two very different ways of viewing the world, and two very different solutions.
 
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Should probably add that by allied I'm talking about allied on a fundamental, ideological level.

Of course it's perfectly possibly for me to work alongside someone from a liberal identitypolitics position on a single issue campaign (improving safety on campus at night for example), just as it's perfectly possible for me to work alongside a conservative on particular campaigns (e.g. keeping a local library open).

But in the grand scheme of things I see class politics and identitypolitcs in opposition.
 
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I'm really curious about what people think of this from twitter today. 'Progressive Stacking' sounds like a pretty shit idea to me. This is an Ivy League University so there may be people in the class who are POC and still privileged. There could be white people in the class with less visible disadvantages like mental health problems who'd also like to be called on so they can get involved in discussion. I'm a graduate student in the UK and there are tons of international students with darker skin who are way more privileged than me. To me this seems like really shit politics and while she may have been dogpiled by nazis I don't think you have to be a nazi to see this as shit politics.

progressive stack 1.PNG progressive stack 2.PNG progressive stack 3.PNG progressive stack 4.PNG
 
Annoyingly all the comments on twitter calling this out are conservatives celebrating over this 'marxist' getting her comeuppance. How in the fuck is she a marxist when this is clear id-pol liberalism? Even the accounts supporting her view themselves as marxist yet they support this liberal nonsense. These are popular accounts on 'lefty' twitter.
 
Annoyingly all the comments on twitter calling this out are conservatives celebrating over this 'marxist' getting her comeuppance. How in the fuck is she a marxist when this is clear id-pol liberalism? Even the accounts supporting her view themselves as marxist yet they support this liberal nonsense. These are popular accounts on 'lefty' twitter.

Didn't you get the memo? Wealthy elitists are "left-wing" now, contempt for the working class and racist/sexist solutions to racist/sexist problems is the new solidarity.
 
Didn't you get the memo? Wealthy elitists are "left-wing" now, contempt for the working class and racist/sexist solutions to racist/sexist problems is the new solidarity.

Honestly, I was very resistant to accept this as a problem for quite a while. I genuinely believed that the idea of the 'SJW' was a successful construct by conservatives to make the left look bad. I'd argue that conservatives are selecting and promoting the most stupid examples of left-liberalism they can find, while ignoring the more sensible and balanced views.

It's taken me a while to realise how insidious these problems on the left are and the scale of the problem. Sure, it isn't 'crazy SJW's' who literally want to kill all men... but the sort of stuff in this tweet about how all white people are privileged is so commonplace and harmful, I can't even begin to defend it now. They give the right a really easy target and completely divide the left at the same time.
 
I'm really curious about what people think of this from twitter today. 'Progressive Stacking' sounds like a pretty shit idea to me. This is an Ivy League University so there may be people in the class who are POC and still privileged. There could be white people in the class with less visible disadvantages like mental health problems who'd also like to be called on so they can get involved in discussion. I'm a graduate student in the UK and there are tons of international students with darker skin who are way more privileged than me. To me this seems like really shit politics and while she may have been dogpiled by nazis I don't think you have to be a nazi to see this as shit politics.

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1. The ways her classrooms are managed are her decisions to make.

2. If there is a real problem with underrepresentation of certain groups in classroom discussion, then she has every right to take steps to address that.

3. You may be in the UK, but she's not - she's in a rather more fucked up part of the world.

4. Even if her politics are shit, she's still worth a hundred of the Nazi scum who have attacked her (and other scholars) and the rotten administration who threw her to the wolves.

5. Like I just said, she and other scholars are being deliberately hounded by the far-right - and I don't believe this is an accident, and I don't believe that there is no strategy behind this. Maybe her politics are piss-poor US liberalism, but she still should be defended against the scum of the alt-right, as should even a self-indulgent dickhead like George Ciccarello-Maher.

6. In short, I disagree with you entirely. That's what I think of this latest missive from the burning rubbish tip that is Chitter.
 
It is and was. I think you might be conflating a few things here.
I have to agree. However annoying, self-indulgent and just plain wrong so-called "SJWs" (and why do we have to adopt this things from the US anyway?) they're to be defended against the brownshirts.
 
1. The ways her classrooms are managed are her decisions to make.

2. If there is a real problem with underrepresentation of certain groups in classroom discussion, then she has every right to take steps to address that.

3. You may be in the UK, but she's not - she's in a rather more fucked up part of the world.

4. Even if her politics are shit, she's still worth a hundred of the Nazi scum who have attacked her (and other scholars) and the rotten administration who threw her to the wolves.

5. Like I just said, she and other scholars are being deliberately hounded by the far-right - and I don't believe this is an accident, and I don't believe that there is no strategy behind this. Maybe her politics are piss-poor US liberalism, but she still should be defended against the scum of the alt-right, as should even a self-indulgent dickhead like George Ciccarello-Maher.

6. In short, I disagree with you entirely. That's what I think of this latest missive from the burning rubbish tip that is Chitter.

Fair enough appreciate the counterpoints. I'd definitely take a wooly liberal over a literal Nazi any day but I still think her politics are awful. I don't get how calling on POC specifically is helpful over calling on people from economically disadvantaged backgrounds or people with mental health issues who may also be underrepresented. I had a look through her old tweets and she literally says all white people are racist and this is an unavoidable fact. I can't find much common ground with that.
 
I see in the Pink News awards last night, Theresa May gave a speech, and an award for inclusivity was given to GCHQ (other contenders for that particular award included the British army).
 
Fair enough appreciate the counterpoints. I'd definitely take a wooly liberal over a literal Nazi any day but I still think her politics are awful. I don't get how calling on POC specifically is helpful over calling on people from economically disadvantaged backgrounds or people with mental health issues who may also be underrepresented. I had a look through her old tweets and she literally says all white people are racist and this is an unavoidable fact. I can't find much common ground with that.
Her tweets are protected. . . so how'd you manage that, then?
 
It is and was. I think you might be conflating a few things here.

It's because I used to believe this that I've been so dismayed to see for myself the prevalence of this type of thing. Of course the right select the absolute extreme worst examples but even the everyday id-pol stuff is far more widespread than I believed. You can't talk some neutrals round to lefty politics now because they think it's all identity shit. Apols for awful phrase SJW (which I hate) but that's the concept bandied about. What am I conflating?
 
Her tweets are protected. . . so how'd you manage that, then?

I follow her so maybe I can see them? I don't know. I put the username in the search bar and all previous tweets and mentions came up. Perhaps she changed settings since I looked but it was only a couple of hours ago.
 
But in the grand scheme of things I see class politics and identitypolitcs in opposition.
That's almost definitional, isn't it? Politics becomes id politics when it considers the cause of a particular group in a way that ignores the implications of looking at the structural issues of class that are also in play (are pretty much always in play).

This shows the way out of the confusion that leads to thinking that any activism on behalf of a particular group must be indulging in id politics. Only if they're doing it wrong is the potentially patronising answer.

Here I have sympathy with ska - got to be very careful about telling people they're doing stuff wrong, but this works both ways. Notions of 'privilege' are relevant but need to be handled very carefully. As the cis word thread shows all too well, the word 'privilege' is a contentious one and can lead to extremely defensive positions being taken up by both sides. There is a rather depressing fog of mutual incomprehension on that thread. imo this fog tends to descend when people start confusing statements that are relevant to analysis at a class level (using 'class' to mean any specified group, not just economic/social class) for statements that can be applied unthinkingly to individuals.
 
Well, you're onto something because imagine if someone of my background had to suffer that crap? I feel sorry for poorer students she has contact with. And after all these years you should by now know what I think of the middle classes, Idris, including yourself.
How do you know that the set of students prioritized by her stacking system didn't include poorer students?
 
That's almost definitional, isn't it? Politics becomes id politics when it considers the cause of a particular group in a way that ignores the implications of looking at the structural issues of class that are also in play (are pretty much always in play).
Well I think so but there are posters, like ska invita, that seem to either disagree and/or be in favour of both, and so presumably they don't see a opposition between the two. I'd like to hear their arguments.
 
How do you know that the set of students prioritized by her stacking system didn't include poorer students?

Wasn't she specific about people of colour? That could include people with diverse class backgrounds in itself but exclude others who might not have the same colour skin. Has progressive stacking come from a place of class analysis? I have only seen it when discussed here before, and examples of how it played out looked to be another way in which the deliberate exclusion or redefinition of class as a mere facet of a person's essentialised identity (which in itself is disturbing) helps to reinforce the dominance of the already privileged, including people of colour.
 
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