Huge fire at Notre Dame cathedral, Paris

[Epona]

Indeed it does, but for many years the state has declined to finance repair, hence the 'Friends of ND' attempting to raise the £ from public/donors. Raises question of why the Church of Rome would not want to use a relatively small sum from its vast wealth to finance the upkeep of a building exclusively used to promote its particular supernatural belief system.

To be fair, that isn't the exclusive use of the building. It is also a huge boon to the tourist industry, and an important historical site.

 

[Spymaster]

Probably both 'here' & 'there' if there's any question of public money being spent on repairing a building owned by a private, religious corporation well itself able to pay.

That's not what we're discussing though, is it? The subject here is whether or not a billionaire should fund the restoration instead of using the money to alleviate poverty.

 

[Sprocket.]

This is what happens when priests sodomise choirboys

Or because Catholic France aided the Protestant forces against Catholic Hapsburg and Spain in the Thirty years war?

 

[JuanTwoThree]

The point to make is that buildings that were designed to inspire awe do just that. The same could be said of ecclesiastical music. The Colosseum's purpose of human and animal sacrifice doesn't lessen its awesomeness. Likewise Gothic cathedrals, or the Valley of the Fallen here in Spain, whose purpose was hardly edifying but makes your jaw drop anyway. I wouldn't let it be destroyed either, partly because it's also a monument to the forced and unforced labour of tens of thousands of its builders. Just like Gothic cathedrals.

 

[Pickman's model]

Or because Catholic France aided the Protestant forces against Catholic Hapsburg and Spain in the Thirty years war?

c4u

and then plucky france fought on until the treaty of the pyrenees in 1659 Treaty of the Pyrenees - Wikipedia

 

[Sprocket.]

c4u

and then plucky france fought on until the treaty of the pyrenees in 1659 Treaty of the Pyrenees - Wikipedia

I was just back to edit, thank you.

 

[teuchter]

Roof fires like this are the reason for stone vaulted ceilings in the first place.

I thought it was mainly for structural showing-off.

 

[Pickman's model]

Indeed it does, but for many years the state has declined to finance repair, hence the 'Friends of ND' attempting to raise the £ from public/donors. Raises question of why the Church of Rome would not want to use a relatively small sum from its vast wealth to finance the upkeep of a building exclusively used to promote its particular supernatural belief system.

the relationship between the catholic church in rome and the catholic church in france isn't entirely one of head office with a regional branch. if you cast your mind back to the compensation paid out in cases of child abuse, you'll recall that came from the diocese / archdiocese rather than from the papal funds. other than nd being a catholic construction i don't know it has any formal connection to rome - i'd have thought the insurance would pick up much of the tab.

 

[teuchter]

A wooden roof burns much better and more ferociously than a solid three metre thick stone one I surmise.

Are they really that thick? I thought those vaulted ceilings were actually improbably thin.

 

[dessiato]

Man as a species is capable of immense cruelty and destruction. Man is also capable of great empathy and of creating things of great beauty. To let these beautiful things be lost takes some small part of our humanness from us.

It is not that Notre Dame is a church, nor that it is a Catholic or Christian church that matters. It is that it is part of that awe inspiring creativity that makes us that much better.

To lose Notre Dame would be a great tragedy. To paraphrase, no man is an island entire of itself, if even one part should be lost each one of us loses.

 

[Crispy]

I thought it was mainly for structural showing-off.

that too

 

[Crispy]

Are they really that thick? I thought those vaulted ceilings were actually improbably thin.

They are. You can see in the night-time shot of the one vault that did collapse. No more than a foot thick I reckon

 

[Sprocket.]

Are they really that thick? I thought those vaulted ceilings were actually improbably thin.

I thought you meant the contractors!
No, I should have put deep, I’ve edited.

 

[brogdale]

That's not what we're discussing though, is it? The subject here is whether or not a billionaire should fund the restoration instead of using the money to alleviate poverty.

Fair point, though the reason that is the focus of discussion results from the fact that the billionaire corporation that enjoys exclusive rights to the state owned property, apparently won't cough up.

 

[brogdale]

the relationship between the catholic church in rome and the catholic church in france isn't entirely one of head office with a regional branch. if you cast your mind back to the compensation paid out in cases of child abuse, you'll recall that came from the diocese / archdiocese rather than from the papal funds. other than nd being a catholic construction i don't know it has any formal connection to rome - i'd have thought the insurance would pick up much of the tab.

I'll bow to you're greater knowledge here. I was under the impression that the CoR acted as a globalised corporation with some degree of control over it's glocalised satellites?

 

[brogdale]

To be fair, that isn't the exclusive use of the building. It is also a huge boon to the tourist industry, and an important historical site.

Yep.
Like Versailles attracts 4 times the visitors of the UK Royal Households...maybe time for the state to evict the Church altogether and turn the restored building exclusively over to tourism?

 

[Spymaster]

Fair point, though the reason that is the focus of discussion results from the fact that the billionaire corporation that enjoys exclusive rights to the state owned property, apparently won't cough up.

Well they only have "exclusive rights" to its religious function (i.e. the Church of England or anyone else don't get to hold services in it) for which they have to pay. It's still owned by the state so it would be similar to you renting a house that needed structural maintenence which would usually be the responsibility of the owner, not the tenant. If the church owned the building then I'd completely agree with you but again, ND is far more than just a place of worship; it's one of the most significant icons of France and very much part of the state's fabric.

 

[Epona]

Yep.
Like Versailles attracts 4 times the visitors of the UK Royal Households...maybe time for the state to evict the Church altogether and turn the restored building exclusively over to tourism?

Why are you so ridiculously keen on preventing people of that religious persuasion from worshipping there? I'm not religious and do understand it (religion in general, and different denominations) as being a somewhat divisive force, but you can't just order the shutdown of religious sites and worship and expect things to go well. It just smacks of being intolerant tbh.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'll bow to you're greater knowledge here. I was under the impression that the CoR acted as a globalised corporation with some degree of control over it's glocalised satellites?

the degree of control has been a bone of great contention for centuries, and i think the bishop of rome has been happier to seek what control he might have over the french church while being reluctant to meet any of its liabilities.

 

[scifisam]

I'm not sure there'd be as many tourists without the religious aspects. People are posting up their memories and lots of them include the incense, the organ music and the choirs. I'm not a believer but some of the ceremonial aspects of religion are beautiful and moving.

 

[Epona]

I'm not sure there'd be as many tourists without the religious aspects. People are posting up their memories and lots of them include the incense, the organ music and the choirs. I'm not a believer but some of the ceremonial aspects of religion are beautiful and moving.

I like incense, organ music, and choral music, and I am an atheist.

 

[Sprocket.]

I like incense, organ music, and choral music, and I am an atheist.

It was originally used to portray an image and sense of the heavenly kingdom you could enter if you followed the rules, were good and didn’t wear a yellow vest.

 

[T & P]

That's not what we're discussing though, is it? The subject here is whether or not a billionaire should fund the restoration instead of using the money to alleviate poverty.

 

[Epona]

It was originally used to portray an image and sense of the heavenly kingdom you could enter if you followed the rules, were good and didn’t wear a yellow vest.

I didn't realise the yellow vest originated as early as the 12th century, sorry. Clearly that is a good reason for seeking the destruction of beautiful historic buildings.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's not what we're discussing though, is it? The subject here is whether or not a billionaire should fund the restoration instead of using the money to alleviate poverty.

he can be relieved of his money which can then be applied to both endeavours.

 

[Spymaster]

I'm not sure there'd be as many tourists without the religious aspects. People are posting up their memories and lots of them include the incense, the organ music and the choirs. I'm not a believer but some of the ceremonial aspects of religion are beautiful and moving.

Not to mention that a vast number of the architectural wonders of the world simply wouldn't exist were it not for religion. You don't have to be of faith to appreciate that/them. You'll always get commies trying to out-athiest everyone else though.

 

[Epona]

Just so you are all aware, the injection of cash is not going to rebuild the cathedral by itself, it's going to provide a load of jobs to builders and craftspersons.

 

[Sprocket.]

DP

 

[Sprocket.]

I didn't realise the yellow vest originated as early as the 12th century, sorry. Clearly that is a good reason for seeking the destruction of beautiful historic buildings.

 

[teuchter]

Man as a species is capable of immense cruelty and destruction. Man is also capable of great empathy and of creating things of great beauty. To let these beautiful things be lost takes some small part of our humanness from us.

It is not that Notre Dame is a church, nor that it is a Catholic or Christian church that matters. It is that it is part of that awe inspiring creativity that makes us that much better.

To lose Notre Dame would be a great tragedy. To paraphrase, no man is an island entire of itself, if even one part should be lost each one of us loses.

The thing is, the value that people put on Notre Dame, the reason people are crying in the street and billionaires are stumping up millions of Euros, is not entirely related to its intrinsic quality as a piece of architecture or craftsmanship. The reaction to the fire is based more on its symbolic value and the fact that it's a well known building in one of the world's most popular tourist cities.

I think for many people who are really into architecture, engineering and buildings, while there's no doubt it's sad to see this happen to Notre Dame, what can seem like a bit of an unthinking reaction is frustrating. There are comments upthread about how the money could be sent on foreign aid or homeless shelters instead. There's a whole argument about the principle of that logic, of course. But where my thoughts go is to all the buildings that are in severe neglect, or which have already fallen apart, thanks to lack of funding for their protection.

I'd genuinely prefer to see it left as a ruin and the money spent on saving more architecturally significant buildings, especially ones that are unique in their representation of a particular building style or type (which I'd argue ND is not). No-one needs to worry about those with this preference though, because of course ND is going to be rebuilt. The money and effort spent on it will not be proportional to its importance as a piece of architecture or architectural history though. It'll be in proportion to its value as a symbol of Paris.