Cid
Proper break this time
Weird thing to say, loads of people spoke out over Tibet.
Hong Kong: what next?
- Thread starter treelover
- Start date
Weird thing to say, loads of people spoke out over Tibet.
Cid
Proper break this time
For me the problem with boycotts is that it is probably going to end up hitting the workers in China as much as anything else. There isn't any real way of making them targeted... And - with the nature of propaganda in China - that will likely play out by entrenching nationalism and anti minority-group feeling.
Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
If I recall correctly Theresa May had some Stern Words in private when Xi came over.
Probably not to stern though, probably something along the lines of "can we have some money for Hinckley Point?"
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Ok, so what would effective and principled solidarity look like on this?
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Don't buy their stuff. Call out people and companies that work for the Chinese government.
Sadly it also means being very wary about allowing their students to study in UK universities: China has a law, and one their embassies work hard on enforcing, that Chinese students have to be 'patriotic' while studying abroad - that means they are required to mobilise within the student body to campaign against university staff or courses that the embassy views as 'anti-chinese'. Failure to do so means their fee's won't be paid for next year, and their families at home receive the attention of the local party machine.
Ban Chinese 'investment' in universities and companies.
And in opposition.
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
O_O Can you recommend some reading on this?
maomao
普費斯
I've never met a student from China over here who was state funded (and I must have met several hundred). I'm sure there are some but most are funded by their families or by themselves. There is definitely pressure among students, which may be connected to embassies at some level, to be visibly pro-Chinese state but I've never seen any evidence for either of the claims in your last sentence. My wife is an ex party member (and her parents are both retired cadres) and the only communications she receives from the Chinese embassy are some stupid spam texts she reckons they signed her up for.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
The embassy definitely have the ability to summon a counter-protest of pro-state students in response to threats of critical protests, probably via the Chinese Students and Scholars Association and probably using more carrot than stick (free day trip to London etc).
maomao
普費斯
I'm not contesting this at all. It's a long time since I knew large numbers of Chinese students but when I did there was a lot of social pressure from other Chinese students to do things like change their MSN messenger (I said it was a long time) strapline to include a Chinese flag and a heart or whatever. But this was achieved by utilising existing social and support networks among Chinese students and pushing these ideas on online forums etc. Not by threatening to not pay the fees of students whose fees the Chinese state doesn't pay anyway.
maomao
普費斯
There is a Chinese Scholarship Council (国家留学基金管理委员会) that sends a limited number of Chinese students abroad (as well as providing scholarships for foreigners to study in China). I would be surprised if this was widely open to non party members in the first place and I can only find it connected to post graduate courses. It's a tiny proportion of students over here anyway.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
What about those Confucius schools thing?
maomao
普費斯
That's just the British Council in reverse. An exercise in soft power through the education system by the state.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Even so, perhaps a more constructive target than students
A good approach would be to kick out all the Confucius Insitututes and work with Taiwan for Chinese language education instead. Build partnerships with Taiwanese universities and stop sending students to study in China - I'd argue it is putting them at risk to do so these days anyway.
maomao
普費斯
I nearly got sent to Taiwan when the US bombed the Chinese embassy 3 months before I was due to start in Beijing. I certainly think there should at least be a choice. What risk do you think is attached to studying in China these days (It's 17 years since I moved back here and nearly seven since I've even been for a visit so I'm prepared to accept I might not be totally up to date on this).
Cid
Proper break this time
I’ve studied at a Confucius institute for 5 years, and been on a scholarship to China for a year. As maomao says if they’re anything, it’s soft power. Even in China we got very little pro state propaganda (plenty of promotion of culture etc of course). I mean clearly they weren’t discussing the abuse of uighurs or situation in HK, but essentially it was like being at university anywhere else.
Teachers at CI in the uk are generally either young people who need experience in the uk to progress academically or long term residents here. Won’t say much about them for obvious reasons, but I can’t say I’ve ever felt they’re anything other than language teachers.
I did once have a language partner on a government scholarship. Again, the only form of propaganda there was avoiding talk about politics.
Clearly there are nationalist students, clearly some do organise counter protests. But given the number of Chinese students where I am, and the number who went on those protests, they’re pretty shit at it.
Teachers at CI in the uk are generally either young people who need experience in the uk to progress academically or long term residents here. Won’t say much about them for obvious reasons, but I can’t say I’ve ever felt they’re anything other than language teachers.
I did once have a language partner on a government scholarship. Again, the only form of propaganda there was avoiding talk about politics.
Clearly there are nationalist students, clearly some do organise counter protests. But given the number of Chinese students where I am, and the number who went on those protests, they’re pretty shit at it.
I was studying there more recently, 2015 to 2017, and also 2009 to 2010. The different between 2010 and 2017 was enormous and I felt like I was continually being used as a propaganda tool and also came to realise that I was being monitored a lot more closely than I realised at first. There was in general a far more hostile, jingoistic, and politicised atmosphere and there were more and more restrictions (e.g. Needing a permit to leave campus in groups above a certain size), as well as the Internet and vpn situation worsening / my laptop being filled with spyware which accessed my webcam / my mobile phone mysteriously uploading data eveey 15 minutes.
Aside from that spookiness, I think the biggest risk is being used as a hostage in some tit for tat. The people running the show at the minute seem to get off on the idea that they don't have to care what other countries think / feel like they don't need positive relations anymore.
A lot of Koreans and Japanese were basically driven out over the Diaoyu Islands dispute and the THAAD dispute, which caused great personal discomfort and inconvenience and cost to them (e.g. The PSB suddenly finding the Japanese teacher needed some obscure document from Japan he had to go back in person for.)
And of course, those 2 Canadians who were kidnapped in response to Meng Wanzhou's arrest.
There is an established pattern of the CCP using nationals of countries it has a dispute with as political pawns for geopolitical disputes. Things are changing a lot and tensions look likely to get worse - I think the situation could change unpredictably and suddenly, and I don't think the CCP are above arresting some random British students as leverage in some Hong Kong / Huawei / Hinkley Point related dispute.
I also think it isn't inconceivable that the PLA are preparing for an invasion of Taiwan in the near future, and I wouldn't want to be in China if/when that happens.
Cid
Proper break this time
Where were you? I was there 2017-18 in Nanjing, honestly experienced nothing like that. Well, the VPN thing was annoying, but generally worked...
It was sometimes quite difficult for Japanese students... But not in an official sense. Just... y'know... Nanjing. Not a great history there.
The only other thing was the arrest of an American student over drug offences. I'd agree that there's a risk of people trying to use that in power plays, though this was in a very localised sense - iirc some kind of love triangle. He was eventually released though and tbh he was quite lucky on that front. Knowing some of the social circles he was involved with.
I mean there were aspects that obviously reflected an authoritarian regime... Lack of live music venues, those that remained suddenly having to close. Potential of death penalty for drug offences. Nanjing, being the capital of a wealthy province, and so close to Shanghai, obviously isn't necessarily going to reflect what's going on in the rest of the country though.
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I was in Beijing the first time. The second I was in Chongqing, and outside the main city.
The severity was perhaps worse there, because of some political strife in the local government - e.g. Rooting out Bo Xilai's allies, and his successor, Sun Zhengcai, who many believed was being groomed as a potential successor to Xi, was also unceremoniously removed. It's anyone's guess what was going on exactly but it is pretty certain that there was some kind of factional struggle going on.
Also, my university had fewer western students, most foreign students were from Africa, Central Asia, and South East Asia. Maybe there was less of an effort to be lenient to foreigners. There were also a lot of people from Xinjiang as it had some kind of arrangement with schools there, which might have made tighter surveillance.
I was being watched because, I suspect, a Chinese friend invited me to some "salon" at his "NGO" (which was a room he had rented out on campus to hold discussions in, I'm not sure he really understood what an NGO was but he was a cool guy) to discuss Trump's election. Apparently the Party on campus didn't like this, and some students had been arrested a year or two prior for forming some dissident organisation which I was unaware of at the time. Some guy from South West Political University turned up to monitor things and was aggressively pushing the party line and seemed to know a lot about me. After that I started to feel like I was being monitored quite closely.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
China has two active aircraft carriers and are building more. We should sink them. No publicity, just a couple of subs to sneak in, torpedo them and slink away again.
And when their space station goes live, shoot that fucker down too. It’s forty years since the US started their stealth fighter / bomber programme, can’t imagine they’ve rested on their laurels since then, they will have the tech to take down a space station.
Take them out, whilst we still can.
not-bono-ever
meh
Hong Kong: China says it will not recognise UK overseas passports
Ambassador’s warning comes in response to UK’s special visa offer to Hong Kong citizens
poker face
Hong Kong: China says it will not recognise UK overseas passports
Ambassador’s warning comes in response to UK’s special visa offer to Hong Kong citizenswww.theguardian.com
poker face
China doesn't recognise Taiwanese passports either, hasn't stopped a lot of Hong Kong people moving there.
Apologies if already posted. Obviously, it's probably more about the money aspect but an unusual idea, all the same.
Hong Kong property tycoon pitches new city idea to Ireland
Hong Kong property tycoon pitches new city idea to Ireland
A swarm of cops raided and searched the offices of pro-democracy newspaper Apple Daily Monday morning. Seven people, including founder Jimmy Lai and one of his sons, were arrested under the new security law for allegedly "colluding with foreign forces to jeopardise national security."
These are chilling images to see from a place once renowned for its free press, Hong Kong is so fucked.
These are chilling images to see from a place once renowned for its free press, Hong Kong is so fucked.
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It's disturbing how easily democracy can be snuffed out.
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