Griffin and BNP strategy

[audiotech]

he he

cheers .. will take a look at that .. sounds interesting .. be interested to see if it is nick knowles and whether the hackney discussion has had an influence

and hey pal who you accusing of not being reflective and calm!

he he

"pal"?

'Prolongs Active Life'.

 

[The Black Hand]

whatever .. i am sure you mean well but you are totally out of touch .. there is no more point in debating with you as your analysis has no basis in reality but only in your academic magazine world .. it is not good enough

p.s. 6) i started a thread about it .. shakes head and walks away

whatever .. i am sure you mean well but you are totally out of touch .. there is no point in debating with you as you have no analysis, no basis in reality, but only in your ultra left world .. it is not good enough

Ps - really, i do miss the odd thing

 

[LLETSA]

hey mate look it's all percentages .. look i never said it was going to makeit happen JUST that there is a counter arguement .. doesn't make it fact .. tbth i think the chances of people ever running their lives in a real democratic society are pretty minimal .. but it was ever so .. but what has that got to do with teh attempt to do that? as i said to poster the other day just cos something got harder doesn't mean you get out or does it?? to me being human means fighting for my species my family my community .. I can not see it anyother way nor in any other context .. i do not blame people for being tried and cycnical but if you think we who not, are purely in fairy land or faith based, you are very wrong .. i am absoutely aware of how bleak it is .. it is just that that does not stop me having a go 'optimism of the will .. pessimism of the intelect'

p.s. i'm short .. and part welsh and part jewish .. we never give up!

It's okay-I'm not suggesting you should.

 

[LLETSA]

what are you talking about? it is nothing to do with faith. it is observable fact that when the ruling class, those who control the means of production, can no longer rule through democratic means, they resort to any means necessary, including fascism, to maintain that rule. equally so, it is observable there are phenomena in the methods of working-class struggle that consistently repeat themselves.

now what you seem to be saying is that we should throw a couple hundred years of observation out of the window. so go one explain, why is it impossible for there to be crisis where those who control the means of production might turn to fascism to smash bourgeois democracy? exactly what has changed in the nature of capitalism?

I don't really know what to say to somebody who seems to think that history is simply a series of events repeating themselves and generalises so much that he speaks as if the entire world is one society that never changes.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I don't really know what to say to somebody who seems to think that history is simply a series of events repeating themselves and generalises so much that he speaks as if the entire world is one society that never changes.

I'm not surprised you don't know what to say, you are talking shit. for example, can you name Society where those who have controlled the means of production, haven't 'controlled' society? This is a constantly repeating phenomena of "CLASS SOCIETY", not believed in as in blind faith, but observed as in science. this is a phenomena that will never cease to exist, as long as we have CLASS SOCIETY. if you are seriously arguing that a ruling class will not turn to any means necessary, including fascism, in order to defend its control, you are a bigger numpty than you have already displayed, however I think you're merely unable to admit when you are wrong.

and that is something else you don't understand about marxism, it isn't saying society never changes, it is the theory of change. Marx is to explaining the dynamics of social evolution, what Darwin was to the natural world.

 

[JimPage]

http://lukeakehurst.blogspot.com/2008/06/london-results-by-parliamentary.html

Lists BNP votes by parliamentary constituency in London, where the votes were significant. One in Particular of note, where they are clearly within
striking distance of taking the parliamentary seat - namely Dagenham & Rainham

C - 7,065 (28.84%), BNP - 6,112 (24.95%), 2nd PlaceLab - 5,620 (22.94%), LD - 1,227(5.01%), Green 794 (3.24%)

Anyway, in summary- their best votes

Barking BNP - 6,129 (26.23%) 2nd Place
Bexleyheath & Crayford BNP - 3,433 (13.81%), 3rd Place
Bromley & Chislehurst – BNP - 1,829 (6.97%)
Carshalton & Wallington – BNP - 1,955 (8.10%)
Chingford & Woodford Green – BNP - 2,086 (7.74%)
Croydon Central BNP - 2,144 (7.77%)
Edmonton – BNP - 1,296 (5.62%),
Eltham – BNP - 2,982 (11.85%) 3rd Place
Enfield N – BNP - 1,908 (7.51%) 3rd Place
Erith & Thamesmead – BNP - 3,015 (13.23%), 3rd Place
Feltham & Heston – BNP - 1,682 (8.04%)
Greenwich & Woolwich – BNP - 810 (6.20%)
Hayes & Harlington – BNP - 2,081 (9.87%) 3rd Place
Hornchurch & Upminster – BNP - 5,386 (16.90%), 2nd Place
Ilford N – BNP - 2,226 (8.19%), 3rd Place
Mitcham & Morden – BNP - 1,976 (7.30%), 3rd Place
Northwood & Pinner – BNP - 1,677 (5.47%)
Old Bexley & Sidcup – BNP - 3,020 (10.63%) 3rd Place
Orpington – BNP - 2,356 (7.62%)
Romford – BNP - 4,100 (15.30%), 2nd Place
Sutton & Cheam – BNP - 1,852 (7.28%)
Uxbridge & S Ruislip – BNP - 2,738 (10.64%) 3rd Place
West Ham – BNP - 1,673 (6.29%),

 

[JimPage]

BNP fighting Henley by election

Candidates expected in council by elections in Hillingdon, Bexley and Havering on July 4th

 

[The Black Hand]

http://lukeakehurst.blogspot.com/2008/06/london-results-by-parliamentary.html

Lists BNP votes by parliamentary constituency in London, where the votes were significant. One in Particular of note, where they are clearly within
striking distance of taking the parliamentary seat - namely Dagenham & Rainham

C - 7,065 (28.84%), BNP - 6,112 (24.95%), 2nd PlaceLab - 5,620 (22.94%), LD - 1,227(5.01%), Green 794 (3.24%)

Anyway, in summary- their best votes

Barking BNP - 6,129 (26.23%) 2nd Place
Bexleyheath & Crayford BNP - 3,433 (13.81%), 3rd Place
Bromley & Chislehurst – BNP - 1,829 (6.97%)
Carshalton & Wallington – BNP - 1,955 (8.10%)
Chingford & Woodford Green – BNP - 2,086 (7.74%)
Croydon Central BNP - 2,144 (7.77%)
Edmonton – BNP - 1,296 (5.62%),
Eltham – BNP - 2,982 (11.85%) 3rd Place
Enfield N – BNP - 1,908 (7.51%) 3rd Place
Erith & Thamesmead – BNP - 3,015 (13.23%), 3rd Place
Feltham & Heston – BNP - 1,682 (8.04%)
Greenwich & Woolwich – BNP - 810 (6.20%)
Hayes & Harlington – BNP - 2,081 (9.87%) 3rd Place
Hornchurch & Upminster – BNP - 5,386 (16.90%), 2nd Place
Ilford N – BNP - 2,226 (8.19%), 3rd Place
Mitcham & Morden – BNP - 1,976 (7.30%), 3rd Place
Northwood & Pinner – BNP - 1,677 (5.47%)
Old Bexley & Sidcup – BNP - 3,020 (10.63%) 3rd Place
Orpington – BNP - 2,356 (7.62%)
Romford – BNP - 4,100 (15.30%), 2nd Place
Sutton & Cheam – BNP - 1,852 (7.28%)
Uxbridge & S Ruislip – BNP - 2,738 (10.64%) 3rd Place
West Ham – BNP - 1,673 (6.29%),

I make that a total of their best votes area of 85656 and a % BNP average vote of 10.5629% IN THEIR BEST WARDS (of those who voted).

Just at a level to get the lay anti racist and anti fascists starting to mobilise I would have thought.

As for Barking and Dagenham, the 3 way between Tory/Labour/BNP will be interesting - the Lib dem and green vote will never go BNP, so its difficult to call. However, I suspect that the Tory and Labour have more voters who can be mobilised (who stayed at home this time) than the BNP by a considerable margin.

 

[LLETSA]

I'm not surprised you don't know what to say, you are talking shit. for example, can you name Society where those who have controlled the means of production, haven't 'controlled' society? This is a constantly repeating phenomena of "CLASS SOCIETY", not believed in as in blind faith, but observed as in science. this is a phenomena that will never cease to exist, as long as we have CLASS SOCIETY. if you are seriously arguing that a ruling class will not turn to any means necessary, including fascism, in order to defend its control, you are a bigger numpty than you have already displayed, however I think you're merely unable to admit when you are wrong.

and that is something else you don't understand about marxism, it isn't saying society never changes, it is the theory of change. Marx is to explaining the dynamics of social evolution, what Darwin was to the natural world.

Yes indeed-the blindingly obvious fact that this remains a class society means that what happened elsewhere in a different era is set to repeat itself just as it never did before.

 

[The Black Hand]

so go on explain, why is it impossible for there to be crisis where those who control the means of production might turn to fascism to smash bourgeois democracy? exactly what has changed in the nature of capitalism?

Good point which Letsa failed to answer. Sorry Letty but its true. Those in control of the means of production, international capitalism, could still return to fascism where ever they choose to given the lack of a tolerant thinking and positive working class alternative anywhere/everywhere (but especially here). That is not to say they will have to here, I do not believe fascism is on the agenda in britain, globalised capital will not allow it for the foreseeable. How long the foreseeable is I don't know, but at least 40/50 years, if ever.

 

[LLETSA]

Good point which Letsa failed to answer. Sorry Letty but its true. Those in control of the means of production, international capitalism, could still return to fascism where ever they choose to given the lack of a tolerant thinking and positive working class alternative anywhere/everywhere (but especially here). That is not to say they will have to here, I do not believe fascism is on the agenda in britain, globalised capital will not allow it for the foreseeable. How long the foreseeable is I don't know, but at least 40/50 years, if ever.

They will not turn to fascism because changed conditions rule out a systematic challenge to capitalism.

Note to RMP3: this doesn't mean that class society has ceased to exist, simply that both it and (simplifying for the sake of brevity) the way capitalism organises itself have changed. The radical left, in all its forms, has failed to do so, which is why it no longer has any real purchase on reality and is in irreversible decline. Class struggle will not cease but it will not lead to revolution as envisaged for the last century or more.

 

[The Black Hand]

Manchester June 10th - grass roots campaigning against racism and fascism;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/06/400018.html

This is interesting cos it is a key group in Oldham who have tirelessly campaigned on a united front/popular front basis against racism and fascism in Oldham. And guess what, the BNP vote has gone down and their candidate numbers in one of their thought of 'heartlands' has declined to 4. So much for the 'ever growing' bnp - they are on the way out

 

[The Black Hand]

They will not turn to fascism because changed conditions rule out a systematic challenge to capitalism.

You seem to have been coming to grips with globalised capitalism recently - has anything caused your shift in emphasis/analysis recently?

I am not sure if I agree with you either boss, certainly it would appear that there is more of a material basis (economically and culturally) for a working class left/@ opposition to form than the right wing nationalists. As the left/@ can use solidarity across boundaries - there is even one big UK union shortly to merge with an American one... I am not saying it will necessarily or inevitably be done, but 'nationalisms' have far less possibilities in common for united political work in globalised conditions. Over to you.

 

[durruti02]

http://lukeakehurst.blogspot.com/2008/06/london-results-by-parliamentary.html

Lists BNP votes by parliamentary constituency in London, where the votes were significant. One in Particular of note, where they are clearly within
striking distance of taking the parliamentary seat - namely Dagenham & Rainham

C - 7,065 (28.84%), BNP - 6,112 (24.95%), 2nd PlaceLab - 5,620 (22.94%), LD - 1,227(5.01%), Green 794 (3.24%)

Anyway, in summary- their best votes

Barking BNP - 6,129 (26.23%) 2nd Place
Bexleyheath & Crayford BNP - 3,433 (13.81%), 3rd Place
Bromley & Chislehurst – BNP - 1,829 (6.97%)
Carshalton & Wallington – BNP - 1,955 (8.10%)
Chingford & Woodford Green – BNP - 2,086 (7.74%)
Croydon Central BNP - 2,144 (7.77%)
Edmonton – BNP - 1,296 (5.62%),
Eltham – BNP - 2,982 (11.85%) 3rd Place
Enfield N – BNP - 1,908 (7.51%) 3rd Place
Erith & Thamesmead – BNP - 3,015 (13.23%), 3rd Place
Feltham & Heston – BNP - 1,682 (8.04%)
Greenwich & Woolwich – BNP - 810 (6.20%)
Hayes & Harlington – BNP - 2,081 (9.87%) 3rd Place
Hornchurch & Upminster – BNP - 5,386 (16.90%), 2nd Place
Ilford N – BNP - 2,226 (8.19%), 3rd Place
Mitcham & Morden – BNP - 1,976 (7.30%), 3rd Place
Northwood & Pinner – BNP - 1,677 (5.47%)
Old Bexley & Sidcup – BNP - 3,020 (10.63%) 3rd Place
Orpington – BNP - 2,356 (7.62%)
Romford – BNP - 4,100 (15.30%), 2nd Place
Sutton & Cheam – BNP - 1,852 (7.28%)
Uxbridge & S Ruislip – BNP - 2,738 (10.64%) 3rd Place
West Ham – BNP - 1,673 (6.29%),

nf did very well in sw london as well

eta oops that should be SE london .. sorry

 

[The Black Hand]

nf did very well in sw london as well

How do you explain that vote without a cultural materialist pov??

i do not see how it can be done otherwise, certainly not realistically and honestly from an anarchist and/or Marxist pov.

 

[JimPage]

I make that a total of their best votes area of 85656 and a % BNP average vote of 10.5629% IN THEIR BEST WARDS (of those who voted).

In their best wards- in B&D and Havering - (the 8 in which they won outright)- from memory they are polling low 40% high 30%

 

[JimPage]

Fortcoming by election candidates confirmed for BNP in by-elections for Hatfield and Blackpool councils

 

[The Black Hand]

In their best wards- in B&D and Havering - (the 8 in which they won outright)- from memory they are polling low 40% high 30%

I quoted you saying those were their 'best wards', as for Barking and Dagenham how about looking at you own figures?

"namely Dagenham & Rainham

C - 7,065 (28.84%), BNP - 6,112 (24.95%), 2nd PlaceLab - 5,620 (22.94%), LD - 1,227(5.01%), Green 794 (3.24%)

Anyway, in summary- their best votes

Barking BNP - 6,129 (26.23%)"

Add Dagenham & Rainham, to Barking = 51.23, and divide by 2 = 25.59%.

That's well short of high 30's and low 40's%....

 

[butchersapron]

No, the top 7 results in the wards they won in B&B are

34.5%
31.1%
30.6%
31.7%
38.2%
34%
38.5%.

Jim is just about correct - and cabn be fogiven being slightly off target as he's working from memory.

And it's totally dishonest to use his quote about the 7 wards they won in B&D (and he's quite specific that these are the results he's talking about) and attempt to dismiss it on the basis of the total vote across alll the wards. Even searclight have stopped this 'they're going nowhere in B&D and D&R' propoganda approach today. They are now warning of a potential BNP council and two MPs.

 

[TremulousTetra]

No, the top 7 results in the wards they won in B&B are

34.5%
31.1%
30.6%
31.7%
38.2%
34%
38.5%.

Jim is just about correct - and cabn be fogiven being slightly off target as he's working from memory.

And it's totally dishonest to use his quote about the 7 wards they won in B&D (and he's quite specific that these are the results he's talking about) and attempt to dismiss it on the basis of the total vote across alll the wards. Even searclight have stopped this 'they're going nowhere in B&D and D&R' propoganda approach today. They are now warning of a potential BNP council and two MPs.

so what did you say the solution was again Napoleon?

BTW, how's the halitosis?

 

[The Black Hand]

No, the top 7 results in the wards they won in B&B are

34.5%
31.1%
30.6%
31.7%
38.2%
34%
38.5%.

Jim is just about correct - and can be fogiven being slightly off target as he's working from memory.

And it's totally dishonest to use his quote about the 7 wards they won in B&D (and he's quite specific that these are the results he's talking about) and attempt to dismiss it on the basis of the total vote across alll the wards. Even searclight have stopped this 'they're going nowhere in B&D and D&R' propoganda approach today. They are now warning of a potential BNP council and two MPs.

I wasn't doing anything I just used what was in front of me - there was no agenda or plot...

I have used their winning figures you have supplied. Their average % in those is 34% - 34.08% to be exact.

That is not high 30's or low 40's is it?? I have not got anything against jim at all - you though have things to sort out with me and quickly, you had better calm down a bit Things cannot go on as they are.

I'm surprised you can't recognise ultra left politics when you see it either.

 

[JimPage]

3 forthcoming by elections in Londonwith BNP Canddiates- all on 3rd July
Bexley Christchurch Ward
Barking Chadwell Heath ward
Havering South Hornchurch ward

The last 2 need particular attention, and are both potentially winnable for BNP on a very good day

By election next week, in Carslile, forthcoming in Derbyshire, Hatfield and Blackpool

 

[durruti02]

3 forthcoming by elections in Londonwith BNP Canddiates- all on 3rd July
Bexley Christchurch Ward
Barking Chadwell Heath ward
Havering South Hornchurch ward

The last 2 need particular attention, and are both potentially winnable for BNP on a very good day

By election next week, in Carslile, forthcoming in Derbyshire, Hatfield and Blackpool

whens the hatfield one jim?

 

[The Black Hand]

Pure comedy gold if true;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/06/401192.html

 

[JimPage]

whens the hatfield one jim?

Hatfield Central 26th June

Also picked up they are fighting by elections in Hillingdon and Redbridge - so thats 5 in London over next month.

Also, Derbyshire CC- Eckington- 3 July

 

[trevhagl]

The left are failing because they have no funding, whereas the BNP have lots of rich backers who want to cause division amongst the working class.
Griffin is clearly bonkers when he says things like "Brown's welfarist agenda" when New Labour have done more than even the tories to persecute the unemployed - but some people will believe anything he says...

 

[JimPage]

On matters BNP- and in particular their leadership challenge- Chris Jackson has postponed his challenge until 2009- and the Voice Of Change crowds website seems to have gone down completely, and no update for a week on Colin Autys leadership challenge blog, so this may or may not happen

 

[The Black Hand]

The host of the RWB festival has had visitors overnight - clearly they didn't like the fascist farmer;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/06/401448.html?c=on#c197848

 

[JimPage]

The host of the RWB festival has had visitors overnight - clearly they didn't like the fascist farmer;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/06/401448.html?c=on#c197848

Well am not going to slag Antifa off, or advocate what they do, as I would not personally get involved in physical force antifascism any more (due to fitness - i would probably be a liability)

However, on reflection, I just dont know the physical force strategy fits in to the new reality of the BNP on the GLA after May 1st. Things have changed- and antifascism needs to evolve.

And based on some of the more psychotic posts on the Lancaster Unity site, unless the demo against the RWB is properly stewarded, it risks ending up in mass arrests for antifascists, or women and kids getting hurt, which has never been the anti fascist way

 

[The Black Hand]

Well am not going to slag Antifa off, or advocate what they do, as I would not personally get involved in physical force antifascism any more (due to fitness - i would probably be a liability)

However, on reflection, I just dont know the physical force strategy fits in to the new reality of the BNP on the GLA after May 1st. Things have changed- and antifascism needs to evolve.

And based on some of the more psychotic posts on the Lancaster Unity site, unless the demo against the RWB is properly stewarded, it risks ending up in mass arrests for antifascists, or women and kids getting hurt, which has never been the anti fascist way

I do not think it was anti fa...