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Greek elections

taffboy gwyrdd said:
Likewise, it's not just UKIP and No2EU types who will be repulsed and/or disturbed if the EU continue to mishandle this.
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A few months down the line it will be interesting to see whether there are any lessons in the Syriza-ANEL coalition for socialists in the UK to learn from in terms of bringing UKIP inclined people into a progressive anti-neoliberal tent.
 
Pritchard’s reading of events in Thursday’s Telegraph was that they need to go the forcible eviction rather than "making yourself deliberately homeless" route to avoid some sort of bail-in expropriation :

They may have concluded that.....they would do better to default and restore a Greek sovereign currency.

If so, they cannot admit it. They must make it appear that the decision was forced upon them, just as France’s Leon Blum had to tell white lies to free his country from the Gold Standard in 1936.

Syriza officials are fully aware that the likely consequence of a “No” vote would be a parallel currency - or IOUs - along with the nationalisation of the banks along the lines of the “Icelandic Model”. Syriza’s Left Platform has already drawn up plans along these lines. Variants almost certainly exist in the Greek finance ministry.

Such action implies a return to the drachma in short order. The Greeks would continue to insist that the country remains a member of the euro, with full legal rights - blaming the creditors and EU bodies for acting illegally. Only by doing so could they ensure that the full losses from Grexit fall on the ECB and the EMU bail-out funds, while the assets of Greek citizens remain legally protected in foreign accounts, free to return later to rebuild a new banking system.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...red-a-reputational-catastrophe-in-Greece.html
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
The Eurogark servants of criminality will be bricking it, if they have sense, because how they handle this could have a significant impact on the UK referendum.

The Paul Mason piece upthread makes the point that it's not just the left that have voted Oxi, but many liberals and conservatives too.

Likewise, it's not just UKIP and No2EU types who will be repulsed and/or disturbed if the EU continue to mishandle this.
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We've long had this equation in Ireland too . Left and right opposing them simultaneously . Often on the same issues . What it boils down to basically is its not sovereignty being " pooled " , but abandoned . And with that democracy . When Farage talks about people's futures being decided by some punter who's Mr president of whatever , that most people can't even remember his name...he's bloody right about that bit . That's just plain wrong no matter what end of the spectrum you come from . And for the weaker and smaller countries it's a damn sight worse . Your political class are nothing more than slaves for another more powerful political class . It's imperialism basically , and for those on the fringes it's felt a lot more keenly .
 
Casually Red said:
It's not going to be quite as risky now though , not after this . Not if the EU try and place them under economic siege as you say they might. Because then its the EU making the people choose . It's still them bringing it into the political equation , placing the issue front and centre . Not Syriza . The people behaving like confrontational crazies will be the EU scum . Not Syriza . And then the issue will be one of economic common sense , a matter of Greek survival faced with no alternatives . All thanks to EU brinksmanship .

If the EU turn the Euro tap off it amounts to a very similar scenario as kicking them out of the Euro . The effects on the ground will be pretty similar . They'll be half way there .
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That's the masterstroke Tsipras has played. His timing's been immaculate.
I'd say he's successfully split the troika by purposely missing the IMF repayment (Lagarde's been fucked off from the table now).
So now the ball's squarely in the ECB's court.The referendum result brings a democratic mandate to negotiations for the next tranche - the ECB payment.
My guess would be that the ECB will be more pliable/ sympathetic to Tsipras' democratically weighted negotiations now.

It's now the IMF looking like armatures. Releasing that document last week (concerning only the 50Bn Greece really needs) looks like a sign of desperation to keep a seat at the table.
 
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62% barrier obliterated:

Reporting 91,76 %
Voted 62,31 %
Invalid/Blank 5,79 %
y101_en.png
61,35 %
y102_en.png
38,65

edit:oops:ops, look at it bit closer :facepalm:
 
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Casually Red said:
We've long had this equation in Ireland too . Left and right opposing them simultaneously . Often on the same issues . What it boils down to basically is its not sovereignty being " pooled " , but abandoned . And with that democracy . When Farage talks about people's futures being decided by some punter who's Mr president of whatever , that most people can't even remember his name...he's bloody right about that bit . That's just plain wrong no matter what end of the spectrum you come from . And for the weaker and smaller countries it's a damn sight worse . Your political class are nothing more than slaves for another more powerful political class . It's imperialism basically , and for those on the fringes it's felt a lot more keenly .
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That's the bizarre thing for me about UKIP, a party seeking exit from the EU is entirely legit wether one agrees or not. Sked comes across as a decent enough type. It is Farage and the EDL types who have sullied the reputation of the party and the cause in the eyes of many thinking types, even if they have been talked up by the rightist press for a bunch of reasons. It's all caused quite a distraction, I estimate it damages the anti EU cause if anything. Now, EU skeptics of all stripes must be hoping he can keep his trap shut somewhat. He can make sense when slagging off the EU elite of course, it's an open goal.
 
hot air baboon said:
The Greeks would continue to insist that the country remains a member of the euro, with full legal rights - blaming the creditors and EU bodies for acting illegally. Only by doing so could they ensure that the full losses from Grexit fall on the ECB and the EMU bail-out funds, while the assets of Greek citizens remain legally protected in foreign accounts, free to return later to rebuild a new banking system.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...red-a-reputational-catastrophe-in-Greece.html
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If true, thats an interesting and important technicality...
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
That's the bizarre thing for me about UKIP, a party seeking exit from the EU is entirely legit wether one agrees or not. Sked comes across as a decent enough type. It is Farage and the EDL types who have sullied the reputation of the party and the cause in the eyes of many thinking types, even if they have been talked up by the rightist press for a bunch of reasons. It's all caused quite a distraction, I estimate it damages the anti EU cause if anything. Now, EU skeptics of all stripes must be hoping he can keep his trap shut somewhat. He can make sense when slagging off the EU elite of course, it's an open goal.
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eh? sked's had nothing to do with ukip for years
 
Pickman's model said:
eh? sked's had nothing to do with ukip for years
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Obviously, but his kind of angle shows that there neednt have been/neednt be anything xenophobic or otherwise especially right wing about such a goal as leaving the EU.

My own opnion is that the centre and much of the left have been diddled by the EU in a bunch of ways into thinking it was more progressive than it often turns out to be. Many to the left of centre in this country seem to cling onto it because it is still seen as to the left of the average UK goverment. But the same EU that a generation ago did much more to protect environment and workers rights has now been trying to negotiate TTIP and the ISDS. There's no talk about subsidiarity any more, or even a twin speed europe. The social democrat sell out to this is in concert with their sell out to much of capital. Now Syriza have found them out.

Separately, can anyone outline why the KKE wasn't onside with Oxi?
 
J Ed said:
A few months down the line it will be interesting to see whether there are any lessons in the Syriza-ANEL coalition for socialists in the UK to learn from in terms of bringing UKIP inclined people into a progressive anti-neoliberal tent.
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I'd say personally there is more chance of a tap-dancing cat wearing a dredd wig becoming Chelsea's right back.
 
butchersapron said:
Astonishing BBC news reporting. I should no longer be surprised, i should no longer have to shout at the TV. But.
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I tried 30 seconds of 5 Live. They were interviewing someone who said Greeks didnt understand what they were voting on, which doesn't much explain the conclusive result in the face of massive propaganda the other way. The "journalists" question was set up in that way that someone holds a ball in US football for the kicker to blast through the posts.
 
butchersapron said:
The greeks will have a hangover after their juveilne high spirits today the silly billies, then the adults will have to take take over.

This on the fly editorialising made up 95% vof the two segments they had. Actual reporting, no so much.
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oh right, so just them saying that the harsh financial realities will have to be obeyed. God I hate these pricks.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
I tried 30 seconds of 5 Live. They were interviewing someone who said Greeks didnt understand what they were voting on, which doesn't much explain the conclusive result in the face of massive propaganda the other way. The "journalists" question was set up in that way that someone holds a ball in US football for the kicker to blast through the posts.
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Doesn't this mirror/destroy your people are too thick to get stuff, that's why the media are key perspective though?
 
There are a number of considerations regarding a return to the Drachma. Not least the time it would take to physically mint/print the currency. It could take years. What would happen in the meantime?

In the interim the Greeks could use the Euro as a "shadow" currency although, as Greek banks are due to run out of cash in the next few days, this could be a problem.

The ECB would have to step in and provide additional emergency liquidity when the banks reopen and conceivably have to do so for some considerable time.

It's not so much a worry for the Eurozone per se if Greece did return to the Drachma. Indeed in some ways I'm sure many EU countries would be glad to see the back of it.

But the underlying question remains - what would happen to the Euro project if one country did leave?

Would others follow. Would it spell the end of the Euro as a currency and the chaos that would ensue.

Could it even spell the end of the EU as a whole?

No country has ever left the Euro. In fact there is no mechanism for a country to do so.

Whatever Gordon Brown's faults he recognised the folly of a single currency and set
conditions which meant it was highly unlikley we would ever join. Unlike Blair and Clegg who were both in favour of joining.

One lesson is never join a club you can't leave.
 
butchersapron said:
The greeks will have a hangover after their juvenile high spirits today the silly billies, then the adults will have to take take over.

This on the fly editorialising made up 95% of the two segments they had. Actual reporting, not so much.
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i guess thats whats revealing about getting the different news anchors to desperately fill hours and hours of air - they have to resort to their own opinions and prejudices
 
ska invita said:
i guess thats whats revealing about getting the different news anchors to desperately fill hours and hours of air - they have to resort to their own opinions and prejudices
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They exist structurally though not as whims of individuals. Try getting that job and thinking differently And this was on the main national news at 10:20 on BBC1 - the main news of the day.
 
butchersapron said:
Doesn't this mirror/destroy your people are too thick to get stuff, that's why the media are key perspective though?
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What's so encourging about this vote is that it breaks the mould across the board.

Generally, a slew of intense fear propaganda often works. It arguably did so in the Greek elections a few years back. It seems to have done in the recent UK elections in regards to the "vote Labour and the SNP will run the show" garbage.

Obviously the media are key, people who imbibe their fellow narrow line and little else will probably reach predictable conclusions, it doesnt have to be a matter of being "thick"

Greeks have been through such desperation and endless lies, perhaps the bullshit has stopped working, at least in their case.

ETA: "fellow narrow" in penultimate para should read "fairly narrow"
 
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taffboy gwyrdd said:
What's so encourging about this vote is that it breaks the mould across the board.

Generally, a slew of intense fear propaganda often works. It arguably did so in the Greek elections a few years back. It seems to have done in the recent UK elections in regards to the "vote Labour and the SNP will run the show" garbage.

Obviously the media are key, people who imbibe their fellow narrow line and little else will probably reach predictable conclusions, it doesnt have to be a matter of being "thick"

Greeks have been through such desperation and endless lies, perhaps the bullshit has stopped working, at least in their case.
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Only you insisted the 'mould' existed though. Now you're arguing it didn't work but does work this time. Which means, nothing. Pick and choose.
 
Ambrose from the Telegraph is right. Syriza have a mandate to negotiate now. If the EU and ECB scupper that then yes Greece might have to leave Euro, and Syriza can stay in power. But through what mechanism? It's not like leaving a restaurant after a nice meal, and other countries can't make Greece give up the euro.

And its a good night for Podemos.
 
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