butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Oddly enough, the blank/non-valid votes match up almost exactly to the KKE results in the general election.
62% in the post.
62% in the post.
Greek elections
- Thread starter ska invita
- Start date
ska invita
back on the other side
You said " He said he doesn't want to leave the EU - not the euro. And given that's what happened is that the referendum has been focused on the result meaning leaving/staying in the euro, then yeah, such a landslide is precisely a mandate to proceed."
But he explicitly said the referendum was NOT about leaving the euro - he said vote No and I'll get a better deal. So he DOESNT have a mandate based on the referendum to take greece out of the euro.... though like Casually Red says, I expect he hopes Greece is pushed.
thats my reading of it too - over the last weeks Syriza have basically kept hitting the ball into the Troika's court and positioned themselves against the Troikas reluctance/inability/refusal to give a concession....
the problem is it now only leaves the Troika with the power to make the drachma call - If the Troika decides to make Greece sweat it out indefinitely then Syriza would surely have to call a referendum for public approval to leave the euro. I dont think it will come to that - I think they'll get pushed out, and quickly.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It doesn't matter what he says or wishes on an individual level, if the common understanding is that this is what is being voted on - and it, was - then a 62% victory on the referendum is a mandate to proceed. Not a mandate to have another referendum.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
can't stop grinning here. They actually did it, they told the eu to jog on, first time in....forever that I've seen an electorate buck like an unbroken horse. Fucking score. This is power to the arm of podemos. In internal electoral politics its going ro make 2017 very interesting indeed.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Not necessarily thick, merely well aware of their important role in the processes of dissimulation required by the recuperators.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
I think the KKE has near fucked itself.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Tsipras on tellybox saying explicitly that the referendum was not about leaving the Euro.
not-bono-ever
meh
I dont see Greece being booted out/ leaving the EU. The Euro, I dont know- possibly too late to consider a two stage euro vs mini Euro / snake in the tunnel semi floating rate as a compromise. As Ive mentioned befre, the geopolitics of Greece and europe that brought Greece into the fold all those years ago, may be viewed as more important an item than a piffling currency dispute.
Someone has to blink. The thought of some *unamed* forrrreners jumping in to help Greece and subsequently extract favours, is too much of a risk for the big boys
but what do i knows
Someone has to blink. The thought of some *unamed* forrrreners jumping in to help Greece and subsequently extract favours, is too much of a risk for the big boys
but what do i knows
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
He doesn't get to decide though does he? He's put in motion a series of actions that may well lead to leaving the euro and that those with the power to decide have sold as leading to just that. He's now got a clear vote in favour of proceeding with those actions.
ska invita
back on the other side
the reason i disagree with that is because he explicitly told voters they could vote No and it wouldnt be about leaving the Euro - and so the No vote perhaps wouldnt have been as big if he had been saying 'one of the consequences of voting No is that I will afterwards work to take Greece out of the Eurozone' - he campaigned this last week by saying the opposite, that ' he would go back and get a better deal'.
So its not about what he personally wished for as to what he actively campaigned for, and staked his name and party reputation on.
Anyhow, not that much point speculating now - all will become apparent before very long. Big week ahead...
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Yeah , from where I'm sitting it seems an explicit anti euro...and indeed anti EU in its current form...poilitical platform would be seen as much too Radical a step. But, if the conditions are such that it's the EU and the bankers who force the agenda and make that a reality for opposing never ending , generational austerity , then so be it .
To be tied to a mechanism that guarantees you nothing only utter social misery seemingly forever , in order to appease bankers and ideologues, is no place for any genuinely leftist party to be . Their political instincts have to be " let's get the fuck out and start over as best we can " . But western " democratic " politics are such that explicitly campaigning on that platform would be suicidal . They've stuck to a moderate path , ased for nothing more than fairness and common sense from the most arrogant bastards in Europe , in the knowledge that fairness and common sense is unlikely to be forthcoming , given the nature of the beast . And they've the people behind them . It's a shrewd manoeuvre . But pretty much the only one they could take without capitulating to the forces of darkness .
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I think if they keep that 6% from the GE that's pretty impressive.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I think you're not treating the greek voters with enough respect here.
ska invita
back on the other side
Well thats the problem with the Syriza position - he doesn't get to decide - seems right now only the ECB can. And they might decide to just do fuck all and wait.... and watch Greece drown in a moneyless sinking spiral...waiting, as Larry ELliot put it, for '"regime change".
He could've been in a position to decide if they made the No vote explicitly about leaving the eurozone.... but that was too risky a call I guess.
ska invita
back on the other side
the test would be if Syriza said on MOnday "we're leaving the eurozone" would the 40%+ greeks who voted yes be outraged and have a claim to say he was doing so without a mandate? I think they would...
*For the record I Love The Greek Voters X x x x
nothing but respect!!
not-bono-ever
meh
The precedent set by a EU loss of face could be massive
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Do you think they will? I know there is real emnity for Syriza vparty/voters from the KKE but will this have backfired at all?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I think the blanked ballot papers being around 6% (they asked people to fill in their own ballot and put it in the box) seems to suggest their 6% from the last GE have done just that. To keep that vote solid despite all the stuff going on, to keep the most rigid hardline position even when a slight softening (i.e a NO vote on just this issue) was possible is impressive. Not necessarily sensible, but impressive.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
It's not going to be quite as risky now though , not after this . Not if the EU try and place them under economic siege as you say they might. Because then its the EU making the people choose . It's still them bringing it into the political equation , placing the issue front and centre . Not Syriza . The people behaving like confrontational crazies will be the EU scum . Not Syriza . And then the issue will be one of economic common sense , a matter of Greek survival faced with no alternatives . All thanks to EU brinksmanship .
If the EU turn the Euro tap off it amounts to a very similar scenario as kicking them out of the Euro . The effects on the ground will be pretty similar . They'll be half way there .
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No shout for boots. Dolezal all over again.
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Despite the scaremongering last week that logistically Greece couldn't put on a referendum at such short notice I haven't seen one negative article yet questioning the integrity of the referendum process.
So full credit to Tsipras for not only having the balls to call it on in the first place, but for making it happen in such short notice without any accusations of rigging ect from watchdogs.
So full credit to Tsipras for not only having the balls to call it on in the first place, but for making it happen in such short notice without any accusations of rigging ect from watchdogs.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
The Eurogark servants of criminality will be bricking it, if they have sense, because how they handle this could have a significant impact on the UK referendum.
The Paul Mason piece upthread makes the point that it's not just the left that have voted Oxi, but many liberals and conservatives too.
Likewise, it's not just UKIP and No2EU types who will be repulsed and/or disturbed if the EU continue to mishandle this.
The Paul Mason piece upthread makes the point that it's not just the left that have voted Oxi, but many liberals and conservatives too.
Likewise, it's not just UKIP and No2EU types who will be repulsed and/or disturbed if the EU continue to mishandle this.
ska invita
back on the other side
Thats exactly the way Ive understood it too
I think they played it perfectly, considering the fractious nature of the coalition that is Syriza, the mood and wishes of the Greek public, and the wider political situation they found themselves in.... they've just about managed to keep everyone on board who needs keeping on board - really hard to do in the middle of such a serious crisis.** BTW Always a pleasure seeing in another important historical moment in with you all on the boards - especially a little victory like this
**where were you when such and such happend? err. on urban
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