Greek elections
- Thread starter ska invita
- Start date
True, but time and time again whenever there is an issue in the Eurozone Cameron has been told to mind his own business and told to stay out of it, its therefore hardly surprising that having been told all that they find he's not feeling in a generous mood when the cap is handed round. The British government had no part at all in the negotiations and agreement so why would they want to foot part of the bill?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Of course the vermin would never dream of helping out the Greek people out of some humanitarian value or as an expression of solidarity with their fellow man...which is why it was somewhat superficial of Varoufakis to identify them as supportive. They are venal scum.
gosub
~#
from the Telegaph take on it:
Mr Juncker, the president of the European Commission, wants to revive a mothballed bailout fund. It will use the EU budget as collateral against 8.6 billion euros of short-term bridging loans to Greece.
The proposal tosses aside a written agreement between David Cameron and his counterparts that stated British taxpayers would never again be exposed to Eurozone bailouts.
Mr Cameron subsequently assured the House of Commons that Britain be exempt from bailouts, and he has repeatedly used the deal as proof that he can radically renegotiate Britain’s membership with the EU.
Indeed, the 2015 Conservative manifesto boasts: “We took Britain out of Eurozone bailouts, including for Greece – the first ever return of powers from Brussels.”
EU officials this morning said that deal – arguably Mr Cameron’s greatest diplomatic coup in Europe to date – had been assessed by lawyers as nothing more than a “political” accord with no legal force.
Mr Farage will be pissing himself.
trabant
Well-Known Member
Paul Mason, after months of gushing over the left and syriza is now in the middle of a particularly harsh comedown. Condescending and generally shit.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/13/greece-bailout-eurozone-democracy-is-loser
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/13/greece-bailout-eurozone-democracy-is-loser
ska invita
back on the other side
only half true...the one bit of power, of leverage, they had and still have is to default and leave.
I imagine they dont want to give bailout money because what they really want is for greece to exit ... by that measure they're being consistent
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Jeez, I've had virtually no access to news over the last 3 days. Depressing stuff.
Seems Tsipras had a golden opportunity handed on a plate to call Schaeubles bluff and agree to an exit. Should've let that cunt be the one responsible to explain the loss of 320bn.
Hr Schaeuble,
You choose not to consider any disassociation of the democratically backed current Greek government from its political predecessors.
Ergo:
You Are A Fucking Nazi
as for happie chappie ... That's white feather shit! I'm just glad there have been, and still are, people made of harder stuff than yours. Your Vichy membership cards's in the post.
Seems Tsipras had a golden opportunity handed on a plate to call Schaeubles bluff and agree to an exit. Should've let that cunt be the one responsible to explain the loss of 320bn.
Hr Schaeuble,
You choose not to consider any disassociation of the democratically backed current Greek government from its political predecessors.
Ergo:
You Are A Fucking Nazi
as for happie chappie ... That's white feather shit! I'm just glad there have been, and still are, people made of harder stuff than yours. Your Vichy membership cards's in the post.
Patteran
A nowadays excuse
The EU's lack of common sense, of reason & reasonableness, seems to dominate Varoufakis' interview. Tspiras &/or Varoufakis described their politics recently as 'rational & democratic', & to be faced down by forces who are shamelessly neither, must have rattled them. This assumption that power would be reasonable if confronted with a finely tuned rational argument could be described as naive or middle class, but to be presented with it so starkly must have been unnerving. 'Between equal rights, force decides' - not rationality.
Another link - John Pilger, fuckin hammering Syriza for being "a façade. They were not radical in any sense of that cliched label, neither were they "anti austerity".
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Why do you think that's what the vermin want?
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Get a grip man. There'll be no such thing - unless of course "the institutions" enforce it upon them, in which case even newer lines need to be drawn.
ska invita
back on the other side
so far its been the rightwing voices within the eu that have outright called for greek exit or at least floated it
there could be in theory a variety of reasons tories might want it - i doubt there is consensus on the issue - but key reasons could include:
-a seemingly correct belief that contributing to bailouts will be lost money, that the greek economy will not be able to repay its debts, so why waste those funds
-that an exit won't hurt UK banks, nor other key european banks, and so there is no fear of contagion
-cold market economics dictates that deflation to make yourself competitive (via the drachma) is a textbook way out of such a situation
-not all tories want out of the EU, but for those who at least want to see the EU project wounded then a greek exit is good (though then again with Greece 'out of the way' it means the EU can function better - so maybe a double edged sword that one)
or to put it the other way around, for the EU to really pull together to help Greece by writing off debts and generally giving it money is all a bit too much like socialism and internationalism!
i certainly doubt that the reason is the one Yanis thought, namely some principled belief in Burkean conservatism...
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not-bono-ever
meh
I think that's a fair point - this turbo wonga level of debt isn't remotely repayable - unless puntive measures and a lifetime of shit are designed to teach recidivist uppity peripheral states a lesson of course and warn others not to upset the apple cart
not-bono-ever
meh
I must admit, I always looked for the benefts of the EU- the travel freedoms, the rights legislation etc- as being the plus sides of a potentially monolithic capitalist organisation. I understood that and could accomodate it as a realpolitik. a trade off . Im fucked now, not sure what to think- are the benefits worth the threat ?
the fucking bastards.
the fucking bastards.
Yep. At least some of Syriza must be tempted by now to take the Castro route. Repudiate all debt, nationalize all foreign assets, charge a high tariff for the shipping lanes, borrow weapons from Russia and/or Iran, introduce universal conscription, appeal for foreign volunteers a la ISIS.
Sounds reckless, but it's a method within a proven success rate. In marked contrast to the present lambs-to-the-slaughter strategy.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Yeah, sounds a recipe for success that one.
It is now becoming clear that Syriza's main deficiency is the very quality that had been heralded as their greatest asset: the vaunted educational level of their leaders, especially the economic expertize of Varoufakis and company. What they have learned in this education is that the essential premises of neoliberal economics are conceptually unchallengeable. Any serious alternative is literally unthinkable for them.
The utter madness and magical thinking of neoliberalism now looks like common sense to the educated, as we have seen on this thread by the mystified musings of Happie Chappie and the like. Welcome to hyper-reality.
The utter madness and magical thinking of neoliberalism now looks like common sense to the educated, as we have seen on this thread by the mystified musings of Happie Chappie and the like. Welcome to hyper-reality.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
I did a bit of digging to check something out, and confirmed that Greece now has the most actual cash in circulation that it has ever had in the country since the Eurozone started, twice as much as before the financial crash.
It doesn't need a bank bailout as such, it just needs the confidence restored in its banks so that the people and businesses will pay their cash back into the banks rather than hoarding it.
There's more actual cash per capita in circulation in Greece now than exists in printed UK sterling per head of UK population.
This is what happens when fractional reserve banking goes tits up, without a central bank willing to print money if required to keep the banks afloat. Ultimately you can't run a 216 billion Euro economy from even 26 billion of cash as a cash only economy, with most of that cash being hoarded in case the worst happens. The economy is built on the foundations of fractional reserve banking, it can't survive once the confidence in the banks has gone as no banks have enough cash to payout all the deposits they hold.
The ECB has completely disregarded it's responsibilities as the central bank for the entire Eurozone, it can't just allow any member states banks to run out of cash as some sort of bargaining tool with that government, the economic consequences of doing that are pretty mind blowing if it actually does result in the entire Greek banking sector being completely destroyed, and the country reverting to a cash only economy.
Fuck knows how much money the ECB will now have to pump into the Greek banks to keep them afloat if capital controls were to be removed now that they've destroyed all semblance of confidence in the Greek banking sector, but I think I'm reading the figures right in showing that total deposits within Greek banks were EUR 123 billion in May including EUR 83 billion of instant access deposits, and 40 billion of loner term savings. So if everyone decided to take all their money out at once that would need £83 billion Euros of hard currency from the ECB, which is a hell of a lot more than the few billion that would have been needed to have just shored the banks up and reassured the Greek people there wasn't a problem, their money was protected etc.
I'm still in shock at how utterly nuts this situation has become, it's like the ECB and Eurozone ministers are just randomly kicking cards out from the base of the house of cards that the entire EU (and really world) economy is based on without any thoughts for the potential consequences of their actions.
Unless the ECB completely changes tack and pumps fuckloads of Euros into the Greek banks, I can't see a way out from this that doesn't involve a return to the drachma, with all bank deposits converted to drachmas, and printing presses running full tilt, with the cash based Euro economy still operating to recycle the existing 26 billion Euros within the Greek economy. I suspect Varoufakis could have masterminded that sort of an option, I doubt Tsipras could.
[/thoughts download]
It doesn't need a bank bailout as such, it just needs the confidence restored in its banks so that the people and businesses will pay their cash back into the banks rather than hoarding it.
There's more actual cash per capita in circulation in Greece now than exists in printed UK sterling per head of UK population.
This is what happens when fractional reserve banking goes tits up, without a central bank willing to print money if required to keep the banks afloat. Ultimately you can't run a 216 billion Euro economy from even 26 billion of cash as a cash only economy, with most of that cash being hoarded in case the worst happens. The economy is built on the foundations of fractional reserve banking, it can't survive once the confidence in the banks has gone as no banks have enough cash to payout all the deposits they hold.
The ECB has completely disregarded it's responsibilities as the central bank for the entire Eurozone, it can't just allow any member states banks to run out of cash as some sort of bargaining tool with that government, the economic consequences of doing that are pretty mind blowing if it actually does result in the entire Greek banking sector being completely destroyed, and the country reverting to a cash only economy.
Fuck knows how much money the ECB will now have to pump into the Greek banks to keep them afloat if capital controls were to be removed now that they've destroyed all semblance of confidence in the Greek banking sector, but I think I'm reading the figures right in showing that total deposits within Greek banks were EUR 123 billion in May including EUR 83 billion of instant access deposits, and 40 billion of loner term savings. So if everyone decided to take all their money out at once that would need £83 billion Euros of hard currency from the ECB, which is a hell of a lot more than the few billion that would have been needed to have just shored the banks up and reassured the Greek people there wasn't a problem, their money was protected etc.
I'm still in shock at how utterly nuts this situation has become, it's like the ECB and Eurozone ministers are just randomly kicking cards out from the base of the house of cards that the entire EU (and really world) economy is based on without any thoughts for the potential consequences of their actions.
Unless the ECB completely changes tack and pumps fuckloads of Euros into the Greek banks, I can't see a way out from this that doesn't involve a return to the drachma, with all bank deposits converted to drachmas, and printing presses running full tilt, with the cash based Euro economy still operating to recycle the existing 26 billion Euros within the Greek economy. I suspect Varoufakis could have masterminded that sort of an option, I doubt Tsipras could.
[/thoughts download]
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free spirit
more tea vicar?
This combined with TTIP apparently being dragged through the EU as quickly as possible... I've not felt this much anger about a political situation for a long time.
I don't think I've seen or heard a single person on social media attempt to defend the Eurozone actions now since before the weekend, even my token rabidly tory mate is seething about this, we've posted almost identical posts on facebook over the last few hours, which is pretty much unheard of. Even the likes of the usually very mild mannered Green Party MEP Jenny Jones is now effectively calling for us to leave the EU (unless it's massively reformed).
I don't think I've seen or heard a single person on social media attempt to defend the Eurozone actions now since before the weekend, even my token rabidly tory mate is seething about this, we've posted almost identical posts on facebook over the last few hours, which is pretty much unheard of. Even the likes of the usually very mild mannered Green Party MEP Jenny Jones is now effectively calling for us to leave the EU (unless it's massively reformed).
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Been away for a long weekend and only just caught bits of what's happening. Depressing really, an opportunity to reject the EU's neo-liberalism and 'more bailout in return for more austerity'. I can't see this latest deal achieving anything beneficial for Greece and its people.
As I said, it (i.e. the Cuban route) has worked in the past, many times.
Admittedly that doesn't mean it would work today. But nothing else is going to work is it? There comes a time when drastic measures need to be applied no matter what the cost, and we may be fast approaching such a time. Not just in Greece either.
Me neither. At the same time, I haven't seen any mainstream politicians or economic commentators attacking them.
So we are now confronted with a situation in which the insanity of neoliberal usury is obvious to absolutely everybody--except for those in power. Indeed, accepting the madness of neoliberal usury is now a prerequisite for attaining power (or at least for retaining it).
There has never been such a disconnection between those in power and ordinary people since pre-revolutionary France.
I'm not so sure about that. There is such a beast as a principled Tory, although I didn't think Osbourne was one of them. Certainly the Eurozone's postmodern economics are highly objectionable by the standards of small-c conservativism. All that is solid melts into air, all that is sacred is profaned etc.
Patteran
A nowadays excuse
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Lemon Eddy
Disliked by dwyer
I know things are fucked when I find myself reading a Dwyer post and thinking it sounds like a semi-decent option.
Christ, if Lemon agrees with me I must be quite wildly wrong. Kindly disregard said post. Or even reverse it.
ska invita
back on the other side
"Growing rumours that #Tsipras may resign this morning along with the whole SYRIZA party. Technocrat gov to come in. "
That seems likely...if they cant/refuse to Exit, and they failed to deliver a deal in keeping and honour the No vote then its the only option...
Yesterday I saw the option floated of Syriza splitting and Tsipras forming a national unity coalition with his rump....technocrats seem more likely than that
That seems likely...if they cant/refuse to Exit, and they failed to deliver a deal in keeping and honour the No vote then its the only option...
Yesterday I saw the option floated of Syriza splitting and Tsipras forming a national unity coalition with his rump....technocrats seem more likely than that
Lemon Eddy
Disliked by dwyer
Even you will be right twice a day.
Patteran
A nowadays excuse
It's depressing that despite the 'from below' rhetoric, the final decisions were so orthodox, top down - decided by six people in a room in a government building.
