Lurdan
old wave
As I read the interview that was Varoufakis plan and he wasn't able to get it accepted by the Cabinet.
Greek elections
- Thread starter ska invita
- Start date
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
banking daleks
Patteran
A nowadays excuse
(Ok - a plan put together within Syriza, advocated by Varoufakis & one other at cabinet level - abbreviated because I'm posting on a phone, not because I'm intending to misrepresent)
Lurdan
old wave
I wasn't trying to be snotty about it - apologies if it came out that way,
I think the fact that there wasn't agreement within the Cabinet about the need to 'respond vigorously' is quite interesting, it reinforces my sense that voluntary Grexit might have caused splits similar to those we can see over the 'deal'.
trabant
Well-Known Member
The results of the past week have been heartbreaking and stressful for me and those around me. We are already trying to decide what we can cut back on and where we can get more hours work to support family members and friends on state pension or that have become unemployed/underemployed in the past few weeks.
The added responsibilities thrown at the feet of the numerous extra-parliamentary groupings by the greek and european politicians is daunting to say the least. I won't hold my breath for any 'humanitarian aid', either by the EU or Syriza. The terrain for struggle has deepened and widened, I hope that the disappointed Syriza supporters that will no doubt jump ship, will join the old and the newly created struggles. I hope that it has become clearer to many that at the state level, no one is prepared or able to fight for the most vulnerable. I hope that we can get our shit together and organize effectively against this most recent tirade of abuse being hurled at an already hurt and dispossesed population.
Fuck all of the cunts playing this like a boardgame. "Hope is coming" - Syrizas election slogan.
The added responsibilities thrown at the feet of the numerous extra-parliamentary groupings by the greek and european politicians is daunting to say the least. I won't hold my breath for any 'humanitarian aid', either by the EU or Syriza. The terrain for struggle has deepened and widened, I hope that the disappointed Syriza supporters that will no doubt jump ship, will join the old and the newly created struggles. I hope that it has become clearer to many that at the state level, no one is prepared or able to fight for the most vulnerable. I hope that we can get our shit together and organize effectively against this most recent tirade of abuse being hurled at an already hurt and dispossesed population.
Fuck all of the cunts playing this like a boardgame. "Hope is coming" - Syrizas election slogan.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
We have tried to speak about the alternatives. Does it matter to you how much pressure the Troika put on Greece? If the Troika took control of Greece tomorrow and sold of literally everything would that still be better in your eyes than even potential scenarios outside the Eurozone?
The problem with this kind of attitude is that what it really reflects is an irrational faith that somehow we're better off with the status quo watching over us, even when they're deliberately destroying peoples lives.
Varoufakis appears to view Tsipras as a naif willing to be blown whichever way the wind goes. He also makes it clear how isolated Schauble is--no-one agrees with him, but everyone defers to him anyway.
Only money counts, in other words. This isn't about Germany vs Greece, it's about money vs people. None of the Eurozone politicians--not even Tsipras--can conceive of a world that isn't run by money.
This is real madness, and judging by the posts on here and elsewhere, just about everyone but the politicians and bankers knows it now. A disconnect this wide between politicians and people is surely unsustainable. The emperor's nudity is becoming obvious. How much longer can his courtiers resist common sense?
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belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
General strike called in Greece against the deal
- there are more powerful things than Troikas
(Please share)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The public sector trade union federation in Greece, ADEDY, has called a general strike for Wednesday.
The strike against the Third Memorandum will be officially announced tomorrow. But activists throughout the public sector unions have begun organising for the stoppage this afternoon.
Activists in other sectors - the private sector, the universities, the school students, etc - are also agitating for whatever action they believe they can get.
The parliament has to agree the new memorandum by midnight on Wednesday.
If MPs are to vote tomorrow, then the strike will be brought forward to tomorrow. Militants of the fighting left are pushing for an "active strike" - in the streets with mass demonstrations, not staying at home.
Angela Merkel *increased* the pressure on the Greek government even after it capitulated. She said that monitoring of moves to implement the memorandum would be strict and begin immediately.
German media sources report that she is not certain that this government can pass the memorandum - still less implement it.
The fight is now on. It is not off. The period of shadow boxing is over.
The Greek government may have capitulated rather than rupture with the mafia eurozone.
Now an attempt to impose an austerity "*July coup" against the Greek popular masses risks a different rupture. Between working class Greece and the powers which should not be.
The Brussels talks settled nothing. Because the power that delivered the Oxi revolt was not at them. That is the Greek working class with the fighting forces of the radical left at its heart.
Solidarity with resisting Greece. Not one step back!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
*The last such attempted parliamentary coup against the popular will (as opposed to coup d'etat) of this magnitude was 50 years ago this week - July 1965.
It marked the beginning of the end of the post-civil war order in Greece. It finally ended with the overthrow of dictatorship in 1974. It is from that date that the rise of the modern radical left in Greece, as an open force, begins.
- there are more powerful things than Troikas
(Please share)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The public sector trade union federation in Greece, ADEDY, has called a general strike for Wednesday.
The strike against the Third Memorandum will be officially announced tomorrow. But activists throughout the public sector unions have begun organising for the stoppage this afternoon.
Activists in other sectors - the private sector, the universities, the school students, etc - are also agitating for whatever action they believe they can get.
The parliament has to agree the new memorandum by midnight on Wednesday.
If MPs are to vote tomorrow, then the strike will be brought forward to tomorrow. Militants of the fighting left are pushing for an "active strike" - in the streets with mass demonstrations, not staying at home.
Angela Merkel *increased* the pressure on the Greek government even after it capitulated. She said that monitoring of moves to implement the memorandum would be strict and begin immediately.
German media sources report that she is not certain that this government can pass the memorandum - still less implement it.
The fight is now on. It is not off. The period of shadow boxing is over.
The Greek government may have capitulated rather than rupture with the mafia eurozone.
Now an attempt to impose an austerity "*July coup" against the Greek popular masses risks a different rupture. Between working class Greece and the powers which should not be.
The Brussels talks settled nothing. Because the power that delivered the Oxi revolt was not at them. That is the Greek working class with the fighting forces of the radical left at its heart.
Solidarity with resisting Greece. Not one step back!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
*The last such attempted parliamentary coup against the popular will (as opposed to coup d'etat) of this magnitude was 50 years ago this week - July 1965.
It marked the beginning of the end of the post-civil war order in Greece. It finally ended with the overthrow of dictatorship in 1974. It is from that date that the rise of the modern radical left in Greece, as an open force, begins.
ska invita
back on the other side
I think Syriza were prepared to fight, just not so able to with their limited hand ---- but they so far refuse to play the exit card. Would you support them in doing so?
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That's not what Varoufakis is saying.
ska invita
back on the other side
Not sure that's right - they've clearly had a go at a fight - 5 months of negotiations - and some respected commentators have even said they've genuinely won some ground post-referendum. Could it have played out differently? Yes and no. Syriza could've acted differently yes, and no chance of the troika doing things that much differently.
Varoufakis reckons he and one other of the six-member "war cabinet" wanted an "energetic" response to the Troika's closing of the banks, and that Tsipras was against it, having decided to do nothing that would antagonize the Troika.
ska invita
back on the other side
I read that but I don't equate that to not having had a go at a fight - theres different ways of fighting! So yeah, Syriza could've been more "energetic" - would the Troika have responded that differently? We'll never know, but I doubt it.
trabant
Well-Known Member
Syriza were definitely prepared to fight and a lot of hope was heaped on them to at least 'relax' the internal injustices. Practically though little has improved. My anger was placed at Syriza in my previous post, it applies to all others involved as well though.
For me personally its an impossible choice to make. To not let my mental health deteriorate any further I try to focus on immediate current struggles. Otherwise I end up sitting here attempting to distance myself from the visible concrete effects and trying to imagine the future of a decision that, considering the volatility in the variation of discussions and proposed solutions, is subject to change within 24 hours. If I was living in another country and watching this unfold without having felt it all first hand, I'd maybe be able to conjure up a rational choice between A and B.
Edit: I just reread this and the end of the post sounds like I'm having a go at you. I'm not!
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
"We apologise to Marxists worldwide for Greece refusing to commit ritual suicide to further the cause. You have suffered from your sofas.
It is revealing of the political landscape in Europe - indeed, the world - that everyone's dreams of socialism seemed to rest on the shoulders of the young Prime Minister of a small country. There seemed to be a fervent, irrational, almost evangelical belief that a tiny country, drowning in debt, gasping for liquidity, would somehow (and that somehow is never specified) defeat global capitalism, armed only with sticks and rocks.
When it looked like it wouldn't happen, they turned. "Tsipras capitulated." "He is a traitor." The complexity of international politics was reduced to a hashtag, that quickly changed from variants of #prayfortsipras to variants of #tsiprasresign. The world demanded its climax, its X-factor final, its Hollywood dénouement. Anything other than a fight to the death was unacceptable cowardice.
How easy it is to be ideologically pure when you are risking nothing. When you are not facing shortages, the collapse of social cohesion, civil conflict, life and death. How easy it is to demand a deal that would plainly never be accepted by any of the other Eurozone member states. How easy brave decisions are when you have no skin in the game, when you are not counting down, as I am, the last twenty-four doses of the medication which prevents your mother from having seizures.
Twenty doses. Fourteen."
The rest is here:
https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/164
It is revealing of the political landscape in Europe - indeed, the world - that everyone's dreams of socialism seemed to rest on the shoulders of the young Prime Minister of a small country. There seemed to be a fervent, irrational, almost evangelical belief that a tiny country, drowning in debt, gasping for liquidity, would somehow (and that somehow is never specified) defeat global capitalism, armed only with sticks and rocks.
When it looked like it wouldn't happen, they turned. "Tsipras capitulated." "He is a traitor." The complexity of international politics was reduced to a hashtag, that quickly changed from variants of #prayfortsipras to variants of #tsiprasresign. The world demanded its climax, its X-factor final, its Hollywood dénouement. Anything other than a fight to the death was unacceptable cowardice.
How easy it is to be ideologically pure when you are risking nothing. When you are not facing shortages, the collapse of social cohesion, civil conflict, life and death. How easy it is to demand a deal that would plainly never be accepted by any of the other Eurozone member states. How easy brave decisions are when you have no skin in the game, when you are not counting down, as I am, the last twenty-four doses of the medication which prevents your mother from having seizures.
Twenty doses. Fourteen."
The rest is here:
https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/164
ska invita
back on the other side
i can totally appreciate how that must feel
it must be even harder to be in power (Syriza) and feel the burden of that decision and I can understand why they have balked at making it ...
gosub
~#
There would be good reason to vote against. The Greeks bravely pointed out that borrowing more money on top of debts at 185% of GDP was nonsense on stilts, got the IMF, Merkel even to accept that. But it was decided twas more important to humilate the Greeks. The other countries throw good money after bad (their tax payers), the Greeks strpped of useful assets such as democracy and te can kicked a little further rather than addressing the issue.
Unfortunately if anyone does vote it down, it will be coz they don't think the Greeks were kicked hard enough.
newbie
undisambiguated
all the usual caveats apply to opinion polls, but this has been consistent for months: in Greece the euro is much more popular than the government. It's not clear (to me) how bottom up politics works in the umbrella that is Syriza, but I'd kindof hope that when 7 out of every 8 people set a policy direction the politicians are listening.
hipipol
Peckham Wry
this is the most awful result that anyone could ever imagine
Yes Greek govts , of whatever complexion, have for years been even more useless that a simple random selection of UKIP liars
Doubt Merkel could get her childhood out of her head, doubt equally that the various Greek leaders could get the 2nd world war out of theirs
madness all round
Yes Greek govts , of whatever complexion, have for years been even more useless that a simple random selection of UKIP liars
Doubt Merkel could get her childhood out of her head, doubt equally that the various Greek leaders could get the 2nd world war out of theirs
madness all round
Don't we then lose the few 'protections' we have, such as the working time directive,
Oh, Cameron wants rid of that anyway.
Does UK still get regional funds from the UK, South Yorkshire would be in ruins if they hadn't got Objective One money.
btw, I am aware Uk gets EU money for the draconian welfare to work programmes
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
This is something I thought about for a while. The idea of being left alone with an ideological neo liberal government, without any sort of protection from Brussels, without still keeping the remaining, perhaps naive possibility that a social Europe will emerge with an EU wide safety net, didn't sit well with me. Now I've seen what they're doing to Greece has left me feeling very different about it all.
Nice bit of writing. These are the things I think people missed about the negotiations. The difference between theory and practice.
It would be great if Syriza could issue Greece a new currency, fuck off the appalling debts and the disgusting behaviour of the eurozone/EU cunts, devalue and grow...etc.
But physically it does not appear to have had the capabilities. To print an un-forgeable currency (or scrip), millions of notes of different denominations, distribute them, value them and so on. Even to pay for an operation that big. Let alone organise it in a few weeks.
Imagine if you tried and got it wrong, even for a week, two weeks, a month...no currency? All I see at this point is vulnerable people dieing. Babies, toddlers, the seriously ill and many many pensioners. Panic, looting and so on.
It is why the Eu could go on stamping on Syriza's head as it knew it could not get up. It makes German/Eurozone behaviour even more disgusting.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE!
trabant
Well-Known Member
I had a little walk to get some air and clear my head, and now partly regret my short-termist response...
Its patently clear (and has been for a number of years now) that staying in and following the demands of the troika cannot resolve _any_ of the issues that are demolishing the Greek economy. The discussion point, I think, is wether Syriza (or actually any of the parties) is fit to take us out in some kind of stable manner. Nevermind wether any of them are actually willing to do it.
