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Greek elections

free spirit said:
I'm in that camp.

What they're doing in Greece now changes everything. The EU was supposed to be committed to solidarity between nations, that's even written into the constitution. What they're doing now, and what they've already done has shown that this no longer applies, it's now every country for themselves, if any country hits major problems then fuck them, kick them while they're down, asset strip them and force them out. Fuck that.
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This is the thing, isn't it? Anyone with any decency wants a Europe of solidarity between peoples. But that doesn't describe the EU.
 
free spirit said:
What they're doing in Greece now changes everything. The EU was supposed to be committed to solidarity between nations, that's even written into the constitution. What they're doing now, and what they've already done has shown that this no longer applies, it's now every country for themselves, if any country hits major problems then fuck them, kick them while they're down, asset strip them and force them out. to live in the basement on bread and water. Fuck that.
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////


this deal might still not pass (whatever the ugly details of it are) - still needs ratifying in many countries.... ive got a feeling this isnt the end of this chapter of the saga... still a lot of actors yet to do their thing - including the people of Greece
 
danny la rouge said:
This is the thing, isn't it? Anyone with any decency wants a Europe of solidarity between peoples. But that doesn't describe the EU.
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Me too. If referendum was today I would be out.

Also this has been a really good quality U75 thread. Aside from the cokehead who collapsed through the door the other day on his/her way to resuscitation ward no one has called anyone else a cunt, despite disagreements. #watchandlearnbrussels ;) :)
 
So the Greeks potentially get larger bailout over longer period and agreement that there can be discussions about restructuring debt. But had to agree to the terms of the Eurozone document, including passing half a dozen laws to implement some of them by Wednesday. They were unable to get agreement to ending IMF involvement. And they finally agreed to the €50bn fund, the details of how its broken down rather complicated, and to be held in Athens (fwtw) not Luxembourg.

Mason expresses scepticism that there is €50bn to be found.


CJx9QN7UcAQz3Ok.png
 
How is this not just a case of trying to kick the can down the road again? It's obvious sooner or later there's going to be another crisis. It's just delaying the inevitable. No way can Greece stay in the euro long term and put up with this level of austerity.
 
This primitive accumulation plays in Political Economy about the same part as original sin in theology. Adam bit the apple, and thereupon sin fell on the human race. Its origin is supposed to be explained when it is told as an anecdote of the past. In times long gone by there were two sorts of people; one, the diligent, intelligent, and, above all, frugal elite; the other, lazy rascals, spending their substance, and more, in riotous living. The legend of theological original sin tells us certainly how man came to be condemned to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow; but the history of economic original sin reveals to us that there are people to whom this is by no means essential. Never mind! Thus it came to pass that the former sort accumulated wealth, and the latter sort had at last nothing to sell except their own skins. And from this original sin dates the poverty of the great majority that, despite all its labour, has up to now nothing to sell but itself, and the wealth of the few that increases constantly although they have long ceased to work. Such insipid childishness is every day preached to us in the defence of property. <snip>

But as soon as the question of property crops up, it becomes a sacred duty to proclaim the intellectual food of the infant as the one thing fit for all ages and for all stages of development. In actual history it is notorious that conquest, enslavement, robbery, murder, briefly force, play the great part. In the tender annals of Political Economy, the idyllic reigns from time immemorial. Right and “labour” were from all time the sole means of enrichment, the present year of course always excepted. As a matter of fact, the methods of primitive accumulation are anything but idyllic.
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https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch26.htm
 
From Ovenden:

It is because the forces of European capital do not trust the Greek government to be able to drive through anything it signs up to in Brussels. One reason is the great Oxi revolt.

Another is that over the last five years, and despite inflicting immense hardship, successive governments – stronger ones than this – have not been able to do so either. Piraeus dockworkers have struck recently. They are adamant they will not be privatised.

Little noticed is that under previous memoranda they were already meant to be sold off. The same is true across swathes of the Greek public sector. The national broadcaster was recently reopened after a two year work-in and fight by its workforce against the previous government's closure. That closure brought down the three-party coalition government and it was replaced with a weaker New Demoracy/Pasok arrangement.

As one public sector trade unionist told me last night during the “violent” negotiations in Brussels:
“The foreign media seem to think that if he [Tsipras] signs up to something and the parliament passes it then it’s going to happen. Quite simply – it is not. There will be an enormous battle.”
2) The executive of the ADEDY public sector union federation has called a broader meeting this afternoon (see Costas Pittas's comment in the box below. He will be at it).

It is set to consider a call from the anti-capitalist left for a 24-hour strike against the new memorandum, whether agreed to by the government or imposed from without through a capital-enforced expulsion of Greece from the eurozone.
 
I think it will definitely play well for the 'out' argument. The EU now looks more putins russia - a ruthless, overbearing, oppressive malign force intent on dominating the weaker nations within its orbit. Chuck latent anti-german xenophobia and you have a strong case for brexit.

Ive moved from "abstain" to "fuck this shit - im voting out" in the past week.
 
This is definitely true, if not overly optimistic on Tsipras's life chances:

".....talks in Brussels brought little reassurance for Athens on either front; the insistence by the Germans, the Finns and others that Athens should accept more austerity, and implement some of it immediately as a precondition for talks on a bailout, will solidify a sense within Syriza that the creditors are out to humiliate the party.

That will have real political consequences in Athens, where Tsipras is already struggling to keep his party onside. He won the parliamentary vote on Saturday thanks only to the opposition’s support, as 17 Syriza members either voted No, abstained or didn’t show up. In effect he lost his majority.

And given at least a dozen more Syriza MPs say they will not vote for austerity measures, that will make it difficult for Tsipras to introduce VAT increases, make cuts to a top-up payment for poorer pensioners and pass other unpopular laws he has committed to enacting.In theory he could stagger on, relying on the opposition to win each vote. But his authority would slowly diminish and the internal rebellion would become difficult to contain.

Quite soon he may well have no choice but to reconfigure his government or call an election, plunging Greece into yet more political turmoil at the worst possible moment."

+ also:
butchersapron said:
From Ovenden:
“The foreign media seem to think that if he [Tsipras] signs up to something and the parliament passes it then it’s going to happen. Quite simply – it is not. There will be an enormous battle.”.
Click to expand...


In the passing of the above the only strong move left for Syriza is to push/manage an exit...surely this current path can only lead to Syriza's destruction. Though as someone mentioned way upthread, if Greece were pushed wouldn't it have protected peoples savings in a way that leaving off their own back wouldn't?
 
butchersapron said:
From Ovenden:

It is because the forces of European capital do not trust the Greek government to be able to drive through anything it signs up to in Brussels. One reason is the great Oxi revolt.

Another is that over the last five years, and despite inflicting immense hardship, successive governments – stronger ones than this – have not been able to do so either. Piraeus dockworkers have struck recently. They are adamant they will not be privatised.

Little noticed is that under previous memoranda they were already meant to be sold off. The same is true across swathes of the Greek public sector. The national broadcaster was recently reopened after a two year work-in and fight by its workforce against the previous government's closure. That closure brought down the three-party coalition government and it was replaced with a weaker New Demoracy/Pasok arrangement.

As one public sector trade unionist told me last night during the “violent” negotiations in Brussels:
“The foreign media seem to think that if he [Tsipras] signs up to something and the parliament passes it then it’s going to happen. Quite simply – it is not. There will be an enormous battle.”
2) The executive of the ADEDY public sector union federation has called a broader meeting this afternoon (see Costas Pittas's comment in the box below. He will be at it).

It is set to consider a call from the anti-capitalist left for a 24-hour strike against the new memorandum, whether agreed to by the government or imposed from without through a capital-enforced expulsion of Greece from the eurozone.
Click to expand...

That would explain why the agreement also demands that various bits of legislation that conflict with previous agreements have to be revoked:

CJyM7d9UcAEEsci.jpg:large
 
ska invita said:
In the passing of the above the only strong move left for Syriza is to push/manage an exit...
Click to expand...
Still the same problem that there isn't anything approaching a majority in favour of exit.

Overwhelming majority of Greeks want to keep euro, poll shows - Reuters last Friday
A total of 84 percent of Greeks want to keep the euro, an opinion poll released on Friday showed, with just 12 percent favouring a return to the drachma
Click to expand...
Obviously only one poll and not clear when it was conducted, but that's a strong statement of opinion.
 
Lurdan said:
Still the same problem that there isn't anything approaching a majority in favour of exit.

Overwhelming majority of Greeks want to keep euro, poll shows - Reuters last Friday

Obviously only one poll and not clear when it was conducted, but that's a strong statement of opinion.
Click to expand...
They want the euro. But I'm sure they also don't want their country to be given away to the EU. That's not a statement of 'euro at any cost'.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
They want the euro. But I'm sure they also don't want their country to be given away to the EU. That's not a statement of 'euro at any cost'.
Click to expand...
Indeed. It was the background to the attempt to make a deal but it will be interesting to see what the next polls say now the deal is done, and as people see what takes place over the next couple of days in Parliament (that poll also gave Syriza an increased lead over New Dawn).

I still don't see any grounds for assuming that Greeks are going to feel about things the way people think they ought to. (Not least people from a country whose resistance to neo-liberalism hasn't exactly been much of an example :) )
 
ska invita said:
This is definitely true, if not overly optimistic on Tsipras's life chances:

".....talks in Brussels brought little reassurance for Athens on either front; the insistence by the Germans, the Finns and others that Athens should accept more austerity, and implement some of it immediately as a precondition for talks on a bailout, will solidify a sense within Syriza that the creditors are out to humiliate the party.

That will have real political consequences in Athens, where Tsipras is already struggling to keep his party onside. He won the parliamentary vote on Saturday thanks only to the opposition’s support, as 17 Syriza members either voted No, abstained or didn’t show up. In effect he lost his majority.

And given at least a dozen more Syriza MPs say they will not vote for austerity measures, that will make it difficult for Tsipras to introduce VAT increases, make cuts to a top-up payment for poorer pensioners and pass other unpopular laws he has committed to enacting.In theory he could stagger on, relying on the opposition to win each vote. But his authority would slowly diminish and the internal rebellion would become difficult to contain.

Quite soon he may well have no choice but to reconfigure his government or call an election, plunging Greece into yet more political turmoil at the worst possible moment."

+ also:



In the passing of the above the only strong move left for Syriza is to push/manage an exit...surely this current path can only lead to Syriza's destruction. Though as someone mentioned way upthread, if Greece were pushed wouldn't it have protected peoples savings in a way that leaving off their own back wouldn't?
Click to expand...
There aren't any savings, one of the US banks did the maths last week, similar total amount withdrawn, they are at most ensuring personal debt stays at face value. And signing a deal that acknowledges their can be no `haircut 'on national debt.
 
as an aside, from the photos Ive seen Alexis is perpetually smiley...quite impressive
Lurdan said:
I still don't see any grounds for assuming that Greeks are going to feel about things the way people think they ought to. (Not least people from a country whose resistance to neo-liberalism hasn't exactly been much of an example :) )
Click to expand...
I know what you mean - on the one hand some will take all this with a massive dose of realpolitik - but on the other there will be lots of genuine anger and refusal - and obstruction. Greece's one trump card was the threat of leaving, but it turns out its a card no one wanted to play - neither the government, the opposition, nor the majority of greek people.
 
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