Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack

[BigMoaner]

I'm a student at Goldsmiths and Bahar has my unconditional solidarity. She is an excellent Welfare and Diversity officer, and this is reflected in the fact that she has been elected to that post twice in a row. As things stand there are all sorts of cutbacks looming for students, for instance all the dyslexia tutors are being forced to re apply for their jobs, one to one mentoring might not exist next academic year plus there is the threat of cuts to the allowances granted to disabled students. Bahar has been extremely vocal in opposing all of this - no wonder management hate her and have aided the media shitstorm that has been whipped up.

question her on what sort of people make up white trash.

 

[BigMoaner]

she might learn something about her OWN prejudices then...

 

[BigMoaner]

anyway, she's just a kid. kids say stupid shit all the time.

 

[kabbes]

well there is growing evidence whether you like it or not - examples posted in my previous post... genes, brain structures... frankly there is likely to be more found as research into this area progresses - that isn't to say that it isn't multifaceted but there do seem to be some biological traits at least related to or commonly found in transsexualism, ergo the trans skeptic position is a bit dubious

Those examples massively beg the question. They assume that differences in brain structure cause differences in gender rather than being a consequence of assuming a gender.

In fact, we know that the brain is incredibly plastic and changes its physical structures in response to our experiences. Given that, it is hardly a surprise that groups of people that have been socialised to associate with distinct gender roles will have brains that have adapted into those roles.

 

[dynamicbaddog]

But the media shit storm hasn't had anything to do with her being vocal about cuts, granted management might not like her but do you not think the media attention is partly her own fault given what was posted even after she first gained attention in the press?

question her on what sort of people make up white trash.

it was a jokey comment taken out of context and blown up out of all proportion
over Easter Bahar was involved in an occupation over the planned restructuring of disability services (as well as other issues) After the occupation ended there were several meetings organised to discuss this and the way forward, one of those meetings was a BME women only meeting. A student who opposed the occupation picked up on this and wrote an article for The Tab about it. - this then was regurgitated by the right wing press who went through her twitter feed picking up on stuff she posted ages ago.

 

[phildwyer]

anyway, she's just a kid. kids say stupid shit all the time.

She doesn't look like a kid. Around 30, I'd say, like most student politicians.

 

[Pickman's model]

it was a jokey comment taken out of context and blown up out of all proportion
over Easter Bahar was involved in an occupation over the planned restructuring of disability services (as well as other issues) After the occupation ended there were several meetings organised to discuss this and the way forward, one of those meetings was a BME women only meeting. A student who opposed the occupation picked up on this and wrote an article for The Tab about it. - this then was regurgitated by the right wing press who went through her twitter feed picking up on stuff she posted ages ago.

and it seems there was quite a bit to find.

 

[phildwyer]

Those examples massively beg the question. They assume that differences in brain structure cause differences in gender rather than being a consequence of assuming a gender.

In fact, we know that the brain is incredibly plastic and changes its physical structures in response to our experiences. Given that, it is hardly a surprise that groups of people that have been socialised to associate with distinct gender roles will have brains that have adapted into those roles.

Exactly. This is why evolutionary psychology is such a load of crap.

 

[smokedout]

and that's the attitude that left me with no support when i was raped.

why didn't you set up your own support service, for people like you?

(I'm not saying you should have obviously, just pointing out what an inpractical and inhumane response that is)

 

[Treacle Toes]

anyway, she's just a kid. kids say stupid shit all the time.

Nah, she isn't a kid. Also she is in a position of influence and power. Saying what she did wasn't just unprofessional it was offensive and an abuse of her role.

Many people experience a status/role conflict between what they would like to say and do/be themselves and what is appropriate and 'proper' to do/say at work. She doesn't get a hall pass, none of us do.

 

[BigMoaner]

it was a jokey comment taken out of context and blown up out of all proportion
over Easter Bahar was involved in an occupation over the planned restructuring of disability services (as well as other issues) After the occupation ended there were several meetings organised to discuss this and the way forward, one of those meetings was a BME women only meeting. A student who opposed the occupation picked up on this and wrote an article for The Tab about it. - this then was regurgitated by the right wing press who went through her twitter feed picking up on stuff she posted ages ago.

kill all white men
"white trash"
Sneering over the "tears of white men" poster.

she's acted stupidly and probably doesn't deserve the internet shit storm
but she's not my cup of tea. i don't really know how to excuse away the comments above.

 

[smokedout]

Those examples massively beg the question. They assume that differences in brain structure cause differences in gender rather than being a consequence of assuming a gender.

In fact, we know that the brain is incredibly plastic and changes its physical structures in response to our experiences. Given that, it is hardly a surprise that groups of people that have been socialised to associate with distinct gender roles will have brains that have adapted into those roles.

do you not think the researchers also know that? all that can be said is that we do not know whether transsexuality has a genetic, biological or social root, there is some evidence that suggests it might be biological but this is far from conclusive for the reasons you give. no-one knows though and to say otherwise in one direction or the other is dishonest and doesn't reflect the science.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The sex that the medics identify at birth mostly assigns the gender that the baby's subsequent life is constructed around.

Yep, and sometimes the assignment is arbitrary, or based on parental preference. Not a good way to start life.

 

[ViolentPanda]

yeh and any self-constructed or -realised gender which arises later arises DESPITE years of (as it turns out) frequently inappropriate socialisation: you read about people who realised they were in the wrong body at an early age, before the time when those in the right body start thinking much about sex. or gender.

We should, of course, reflect on the fact that socialisation can be a polite term for what is actually very thorough social conditioning.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

do you not think the researchers also know that? all that can be said is that we do not know whether transsexuality has a genetic, biological or social root, there is some evidence that suggests it might be biological but this is far from conclusive for the reasons you give. no-one knows though and to say otherwise in one direction or the other is dishonest and doesn't reflect the science.

It often doesn't make sense trying to separate these out. It is both - it is nurture of nature, rather than nurture or nature. tbf in biology this is pretty much an old argument nowadays, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has been put to bed outside those circles.

 

[dendrite]

I'm a student at Goldsmiths and Bahar has my unconditional solidarity. She is an excellent Welfare and Diversity officer, and this is reflected in the fact that she has been elected to that post twice in a row. As things stand there are all sorts of cutbacks looming for students, for instance all the dyslexia tutors are being forced to re apply for their jobs, one to one mentoring might not exist next academic year plus there is the threat of cuts to the allowances granted to disabled students. Bahar has been extremely vocal in opposing all of this - no wonder management hate her and have aided the media shitstorm that has been whipped up.

How much bloody effort has it taken to subdue your sense of justice / harm to the extent you include calls for genocide in the judgement 'excellent'? Can you make a video instructable of the itemised steps you took to make your judgement that twisted?

 

[ViolentPanda]

yeh and any self-constructed or -realised gender which arises later arises DESPITE years of (as it turns out) frequently inappropriate socialisation: you read about people who realised they were in the wrong body at an early age, before the time when those in the right body start thinking much about sex. or gender.

We should, of course, reflect on the fact that socialisation can be a polite term for what is actually very thorough social conditioning.

 

[Pickman's model]

kill all white men
"white trash"
Sneering over the "tears of white men" poster.

she's acted stupidly and probably doesn't deserve the internet shit storm
but she's not my cup of tea. i don't really know how to excuse away the comments above.

* i was tired and emotional
* the phrases are taken out of context
* it wasn't me

three popular excuses for any situation

 

[Mation]

The idea that brain structures determine behaviour is quite outdated. Behaviour can change brain structures. It's the relationship between the two that's important. Dialectical, if you like.

That doesn't make any sense. Do you have a link for what you mean?

 

[DotCommunist]

That doesn't make any sense. Do you have a link for what you mean?

chicken and egg situation- I read a study about schizophrenia causing brain shrinkage once, and the essay critued the original study for its sample having only used long term users of mental health drugs (old school ones. Tri cyclic)

also- feedback. Brain structures form and unform, when one is young. Thats why there is acknowledged to be a certain 'window' of time best suited for learning your letters. Not to say no human ever did become a great poet after learning his/her letters in middle age, humans are a wildly diverse bunch ennit. Brain plasticity is the phrase I remember. And all tied in with huge amount of socialisation we go through in our early years.

 

[phildwyer]

That doesn't make any sense.

It does make sense.

Scientists like to claim that brain chemistry determines behavior, because they can make it do so in their laboratories. In the real world, however, it is the other way around: behavior determines brain chemistry.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes. And this is one of the things that I find odd about the 80s style feminist trans-exclusionary discourse at the moment - it rejects the notion of biology as destiny but then builds and reinforces an account of patriarchal traditional genders based on biology which leads to the same end and allows no room for those resisting, or for those who differ.

Having their cake and eating it, and if you question the intellectual basis of their (to be bluntly reductive) biological determinism, then your questioning will be taken to proceed from your own "capture" by traditional patriarchal notions of gender.
As with the concept of "safe space", "gender" is increasingly being used to mean whatever a particular ideologue wants it to mean.

 

[likesfish]

She was in a paid job that sort of means you beha e professionally

Having a bme women only meeting might be legit But the male tears sign was unprofessional and drawing a huge target on herself and not expecting people to throw rocks not happening. so the shitstorm has started do you maybe keep your stupid comments to yourself or decide #killallwhitemen is too funny not to share ?
Hmm hard decision

 

[phildwyer]

tbf in biology this is pretty much an old argument nowadays

Hardly. Entire disciplines--evolutionary psychology, cognitive neuroscience--have been constructed on the assumption that the physical brain determines behavior. The whole edifice of social Darwinism rests upon the same assumption.

 

[Mation]

chicken and egg situation- I read a study about schizophrenia causing brain shrinkage once, and the essay critued the original study for its sample having only used long term users of mental health drugs (old school ones. Tri cyclic)

also- feedback. Brain structures form and unform, when one is young. Thats why there is acknowledged to be a certain 'window' of time best suited for learning your letters. Not to say no human ever did become a great poet after learning his/her letters in middle age, humans are a wildly diverse bunch ennit. Brain plasticity is the phrase I remember. And all tied in with huge amount of socialisation we go through in our early years.

That doesn't address the question though. Well it might, but I'd need to see exactly what Blagsta meant to know

It does make sense.

Scientists like to claim that brain chemistry determines behavior, because they can make it do so in their laboratories. In the real world, however, it is the other way around: behavior determines brain chemistry.

Yes, it makes sense to you. You're a dualist.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It often doesn't make sense trying to separate these out. It is both - it is nurture of nature, rather than nurture or nature. tbf in biology this is pretty much an old argument nowadays, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has been put to bed outside those circles.

Well quite. Sense can be made out of people trying to separate nature and nurture, but only if you look beyond the action to what drives it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Hardly. Entire disciplines--evolutionary psychology, cognitive neuroscience--have been constructed on the assumption that the physical brain determines behavior. The whole edifice of social Darwinism rests upon the same assumption.

'the physical brain determines behaviour'

I don't even know what you intend to mean by that. If you mean that most scientific disciplines do not work from dualist assumptions - in fact, use a working assumption that precludes dualism - then yes, I think you're right.

How else does one do science? A, B, and C are explicable this way; but D is due to magic!

 

[phildwyer]

'the physical brain determines behaviour'

I don't even know what you intend to mean by that. If you mean that most scientific disciplines do not work from dualist assumptions - in fact, use a working assumption that precludes dualism - then yes, I think you're right.

How else does one do science? A, B, and C are explicable this way; but D is due to magic!

One could point out that the physical brain is itself formed by ideas.

But that would contradict the dogmatic materialism under which scientists operate.

 

[Blagsta]

That doesn't make any sense. Do you have a link for what you mean?

What we do affects our brain structures. For example, professional musicians have bigger brain regions for motor skills and auditory processing.

http://m.jneurosci.org/content/23/27/9240.full

Also affects gene expression

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150327090905.htm

 

[Blagsta]

It does make sense.

Scientists like to claim that brain chemistry determines behavior, because they can make it do so in their laboratories. In the real world, however, it is the other way around: behavior determines brain chemistry.

No, that's not accurate either. It's more accurate to say that our brains and "us" (which includes our social context, relationships etc) exist in a dialectical relationship.

You might be interested in Raymond Tallis's book Aping Mankind