George Monbiot on "Wales' unreported revolution"

[Louis MacNeice]

Quite correct. However, a language which is common to all the Plaid candidates is how to con the working class.

They don't write reviews of their work do they?

Louis MacNeice

 

[two sheds]

Do you have any thoughts you'd like to share with us about safety procedures in lifeboats, Gravediggers?

 

[dennisr]

it may well provide some insights on why nationalism is not so funny!

crude book-read generalisations, whatever the limits of PC, still do not answer the matter I raised earlier:

I've got this vision of 'gravedigger' shouting this at one of those old catalan peasant women being dragged off of a bus in catalonia, beaten and facing jail for the 'crime' of speaking in the only language she knows in Franco's Spain.

Any step towards the 'abolition of the state' - at least any step led by the mass of the population - can only come as a result of sensitivity to, understanding of, respect for and unity with fully understandable minority national group concerns - especially when those same minorities have faced years of repression from the very state one wishes to abolish.

If a socialist is going to be able to cut across the possible illusions created by nationalist parties how can s/he do so with the 'arguements' you use?

 

[dennisr]

even more fashionable nationalists

*tuts* thats so 1990s....

 

[ddraig]

Quite correct. However, a language which is common to all the Plaid candidates is how to con the working class.

and you can fuck right off, far far away please you dull dull dullard

 

[editor]

Quite correct. However, a language which is common to all the Plaid candidates is how to con the working class.

How does that work, then?

You are aware that over 21% of the population speak Welsh, and they are from all classes?

 

[Gravediggers]

In a few short posts you are transformed from honest (if dull) internationalist into the SPGB's very own Peter Mandelson; how do you sleep at night/keep a straight face?

A very disillusioned Louis MacNeice

Sorry if I didn't meet your expectations but to go on and equate me with that rogue and capitalist apologist Mandelson is just expecting a bit too much.

 

[phildwyer]

oh do shut up
they do not and many Plaid candidates do not themselves

I agree that Plaid are the best option for Wales at the moment. The best of a very bad lot.

But there's no point in denying that their ambition is to have everyone in Wales speak Welsh--to achieve parity with English, as the Editor said.

That is their fatal weakness, and the reason why they can't get the votes of the Anglophone proletariat, without which no-one can govern Wales.

And that is why they try to equivocate over the issue. But look at what they did in Gwynedd when they controlled the council: they made Welsh the official language of the administration. Anyone who didn't speak Welsh either had to learn it or fuck off. I see no reason to doubt that this would be their policy nationwide, should they ever come to power.

 

[Gravediggers]

How does that work, then?

You are aware that over 21% of the population speak Welsh, and they are from all classes?

Quite aware on how the wealth is distributed in Wales about 40% ends up in the pockets of 5% of the population, regardless of their native tongue. This 5% have legal ownership of Wales. Much better if we all had common ownership where we can all celebrate the fruits of our labour.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Sorry if I didn't meet your expectations but to go on and equate me with that rogue and capitalist apologist Mandelson is just expecting a bit too much.

Well you're both willing to polish a turd for your own political ends.

Louis MacNeice

 

[dennisr]

And that is why they try to equivocate over the issue. But look at what they did in Gwynedd when they controlled the council: they made Welsh the official language of the administration. Anyone who didn't speak Welsh either had to learn it or fuck off. I see no reason to doubt that this would be their policy nationwide, should they ever come to power.

I remember some resentment from castilian spanish folk I chatted to in catalonia while living there - usually poorer workers from the south - mainly andalucia - who had moved to work in the more industrially developed north east of the spain.

The soft catalan nationalists had by now been in power in catalonia for a long while. Things have changed greatly since Franco's dictatorship had finally collapsed. One aspect of this was that any civil service/local government job could, according to the folk I chatted too, only be applied for by folk speaking both languages. I honestly do not know how true that is but - if true - it seems to result in one inequity being replaced by another in practice, whatever the original intentions were.

 

[dennisr]

Quite aware on how the wealth is distributed in Wales about 40% ends up in the pockets of 5% of the population, regardless of their native tongue. This 5% have legal ownership of Wales. Much better if we all had common ownership where we can all celebrate the fruits of our labour.

But there is the tiny question of how we get to that end...

 

[editor]

Quite aware on how the wealth is distributed in Wales about 40% ends up in the pockets of 5% of the population, regardless of their native tongue. This 5% have legal ownership of Wales. Much better if we all had common ownership where we can all celebrate the fruits of our labour.

That's a question-avoiding swerve that even the slippiest of politicians might feel a little embarrassed about.

Earlier on you offered to "elaborate on the function of the state and the role of the left wing," and you've managed to duck out of that one too.

 

[agricola]

And that is why they try to equivocate over the issue. But look at what they did in Gwynedd when they controlled the council: they made Welsh the official language of the administration. Anyone who didn't speak Welsh either had to learn it or fuck off. I see no reason to doubt that this would be their policy nationwide, should they ever come to power.

That is absolutely not what happened - they just tried to ensure that people at the Council could speak the same language as 70% of the population. This is the same policy as other bodies (most notably North Wales Police) implemented around the same time. IIRC noone was "fucked off" because they could not speak Welsh.

Of course this policy - and the anti second home one - was greeted (and continues to be) with idiotic cries of racism, discrimination and whatnot.

 

[Gravediggers]

Well you're both willing to polish a turd for your own political ends.

Louis MacNeice

To personalise an argument means you have run out of steam for serious discussion.

Get serious and stop flamming.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

To personalise an argument means you have run out of steam for serious discussion.

Get serious and stop flamming.

Not at all; I have looked at a bit of the video and read a number of reviews not written by a party hack. I'll stick with my estimation that you're willing to polish a turd for your own party political ends. As for a serious discussion; well there is as much point in having such a discussion with a spin doctor for the SPGB, as there would be in chatting to the Sealed Knot about contemporary military tactics. You'll just have to bite the bullet of being at best occasional comedy fodder and at worst a monotone distraction.

Louis MacNeice

 

[agricola]

Not at all; I have looked at a bit of the video and read a number of reviews not written by a party hack. I'll stick with my estimation that you're willing to polish a turd for your own party political ends. As for a serious discussion; well there is as much point in having such a discussion with a spin doctor for the SPGB, as there would be in chatting to the Sealed Knot about contemporary military tactics. You'll just have to bite the bullet of being at best occasional comedy fodder and at worst a monotone distraction.

Louis MacNeice

That is entirely wrong - surely the Sealed Knot wouldnt actually lie about how their knowledge of contemporary military tactics? Or would they claim that tanks would not be able to withstand the push of pike?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

That is entirely wrong - surely the Sealed Knot wouldnt actually lie about how their knowledge of contemporary military tactics? Or would they claim that tanks would not be able to withstand the push of pike?

Louis MacNeice

 

[Gravediggers]

That's a question-avoiding swerve that even the slippiest of politicians might feel a little embarrassed about.

Earlier on you offered to "elaborate on the function of the state and the role of the left wing," and you've managed to duck out of that one too.

I did not deliberate avoid the argument by providing the link. It was just my way of letting the thread know of my political stance and a means of instigating a wider discussion. And it worked with the postings going at a furious rate.

To elaborate on the function of the state and the role of the left wing: By its very actions the state machinery illustrates it is not a neutral institution. It can only take action and make decisions that are within the parameters of capitalism. It follows the dictates of the profit system by ensuring legal exploitation of the working class and the natural environment only benefits the ruling class.

Obviously, such a con requires some help in the form of a 'left wing' who seemingly are on the side of the workers by offering reformism to alleviate this exploitation. The role of reformists is to always paint the particular reforms in the pretty colours of being progressive, radical and on times revolutionary. But whichever way you look at it all boils down to tinkering with the system in order to provide the illusion that capitalism and the state is capable of affecting the interests of the workers.

 

[butchersapron]

I did not deliberate avoid the argument by providing the link. It was just my way of letting the thread know of my political stance and a means of instigating a wider discussion. And it worked with the postings going at a furious rate.

To elaborate on the function of the state and the role of the left wing: By its very actions the state machinery illustrates it is not a neutral institution. It can only take action and make decisions that are within the parameters of capitalism. It follows the dictates of the profit system by ensuring legal exploitation of the working class and the natural environment only benefits the ruling class.

Obviously, such a con requires some help in the form of a 'left wing' who seemingly are on the side of the workers by offering reformism to alleviate this exploitation. The role of reformists is to always paint the particular reforms in the pretty colours of being progressive, radical and on times revolutionary. But whichever way you look at it all boils down to tinkering with the system in order to provide the illusion that capitalism and the state is capable of affecting the interests of the workers.

A total disconnect between reform and revolution there - between reform and the opening up of any wider possibilities at all in fact - very undicalectical).

Did you support the miners in 8485?

 

[chilango]

*tuts* thats so 1990s....

Duh. The 90s are back in. Retro innit?

 

[dennisr]

Duh. The 90s are back in. Retro innit?

fair point - i am exposed as a failed follower of fashion

 

[existentialist]

And maybe - one day - you'll learn how to use the 'quote' function here properly too. Well, I can dream.

Whoa, hold on there...

He's clearly a fantasist who's not interested in getting his toe down on the Wilton carpet of reality any time soon, and I imagine he probably regards vBulletin's "Quote" facility as some kind of betrayal of his political principles, so I reckon I'd go easy on the dreaming...

 

[existentialist]

Do you have any thoughts you'd like to share with us about safety procedures in lifeboats, Gravediggers?

"Stop digging"?

 

[lewislewis]

Fine and dandy. There's just one problem: they want us all to speak Welsh.

They can fuck right off with that.

That of course is not true.

I have been a Plaid member for 7 years now on and off. I do not speak Welsh.

Several of their Assembly Members do not speak Welsh.

Many of the party's NEC, do not speak Welsh. Many of Plaid's members are not Welsh speakers.

Plaid seeks equal treatment of both languages, as George Monbiot's article notes, all they want is parity.

 

[lewislewis]

oh do shut up
they do not and many Plaid candidates do not themselves

Indeed, after reading this thread perhaps I should find Mohammed Sarul Islam their candidate in Cardiff West (former chair of Cardiff Stop The War) and firstly tell him he has a false consciousness, and secondly ask when he is going to start forcing me to speak Welsh.

 

[Gravediggers]

A total disconnect between reform and revolution there - between reform and the opening up of any wider possibilities at all in fact - very undicalectical).

Did you support the miners in 8485?

Not into dialectics, I find they can be very ambiguous, and also very limited for further investigation. There is a distinction between reforms and reformism. The left constantly seek reforms which appeal to their parody of capitalist politics where a gradual change in the profit system is supposedly going bring about a socialist society. This one step at a time approach inevitably puts revolution on the back burner besides producing a multitude of single issue campaigns which are rarely resolved.

We support all expressions of class struggle.

 

[editor]

Not into dialectics, I find they can be very ambiguous, and also very limited for further investigation. There is a distinction between reforms and reformism. The left constantly seek reforms which appeal to their parody of capitalist politics where a gradual change in the profit system is supposedly going bring about a socialist society. This one step at a time approach inevitably puts revolution on the back burner besides producing a multitude of single issue campaigns which are rarely resolved.

We support all expressions of class struggle.

What achievements have "we" managed thus far then?

 

[existentialist]

We support all expressions of class struggle.

"We"?

Is there an interest you wanted to declare?

 

[lewislewis]

I agree that Plaid are the best option for Wales at the moment. The best of a very bad lot.

But there's no point in denying that their ambition is to have everyone in Wales speak Welsh--to achieve parity with English, as the Editor said.

That is their fatal weakness, and the reason why they can't get the votes of the Anglophone proletariat, without which no-one can govern Wales.

And that is why they try to equivocate over the issue. But look at what they did in Gwynedd when they controlled the council: they made Welsh the official language of the administration. Anyone who didn't speak Welsh either had to learn it or fuck off. I see no reason to doubt that this would be their policy nationwide, should they ever come to power.

Yes, because Gwynedd is a Welsh-speaking area! Welsh is the first language amongst the majority of people that live in Gwynedd! Nobody had to 'fuck off' everyone was given lessons that wanted to learn- Welsh was of course already the working language of Gwynedd council for decades, before Plaid made it that officially. You simply can't deliver services in that area if you're speaking a foreign language!