George Monbiot on "Wales' unreported revolution"

[existentialist]

I though you lived in west wales?

I don't advertise where I live on here, and I'd thank you not to, either.

 

[butchersapron]

I neither know nor care where you live - it's a joke about north wales.

 

[lewislewis]

Don't vote BNP. Or is there another with similar aims to Pc?

That's fucking disgraceful to be honest. No respect.

 

[lewislewis]

I imagine Plaid's politics have more to do with old 'socialist' Labour than the current Tory-lite nu-version.

Yep. In the last Hung Parliament Plaid extracted concessions- namely £250m of industrial compensation for miners and quarry workers. Justice for the workers!

More of the same this time around? Yes please. We can win concessions on pensions and possibly on public services. Bring it on.

http://www.plaidcymru.org/content.php?nID=14;ID=1825;lID=1&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

[butchersapron]

That's fucking disgraceful to be honest. No respect.

Oh good god.The point's not hard to grasp is it? Or is it? Pc are not like the BNP - i didn't claim that they were. I was pointing out the political incoherence of existentialists post. It relied on pc NOT being like the BNP. FFS

 

[lewislewis]

Oh good god.

Your explanation doesn't cut it either. There is no similarity, claimed, perceived or otherwise, between Plaid and the BNP.

 

[lewislewis]

I don't. They're not. I was making a point about other parties that are claimed to be similar to the Pc in their aims. Can you think of any?

The Green Party on social policy/decentralism, SNP on self-determination. Outside of the UK the most similar parties are the Republican Left of Catalunya, Sinn Fein (in terms of social policy), and maybe the Socialist Left Party in Norway.

 

[butchersapron]

I hope you hadn't seen my edited in bits before that post.

 

[butchersapron]

The Green Party on social policy/decentralism, SNP on self-determination. Outside of the UK the most similar parties are the Republican Left of Catalunya, Sinn Fein (in terms of social policy), and maybe the Socialist Left Party in Norway.

Wrong party though.

 

[ernestolynch]

You must be a riot at parties.

It's the bastard child of nomoney and neprimerimye.

 

[ernestolynch]

I neither know nor care where you live - it's a joke about north wales.

Wt

 

[existentialist]

Your explanation doesn't cut it either. There is no similarity, claimed, perceived or otherwise, between Plaid and the BNP.

It makes a lot more sense if you come at it from the premise that butchers was just trying to be inflammatory. It also fits his MO rather well.

 

[butchersapron]

Or if you actually think about it.

 

[existentialist]

Anyway...

So, by coincidence, I got home and Plaid's leaflet was on the doormat.

This thread could well have an interesting effect on the way I vote, at least: I hadn't seriously considered voting Plaid, but I'm going to have a really good look at their position now, and at the candidate. It'll be nice to have a real choice, what with the BNP not usually fielding a candidate down here, and all...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

This this Plaid platform probably won't be seeing the inside of the statute books any time soon, as it looks guaranteed to bring bankruptcy or deficit spending to the govt in a big way.

 

[existentialist]

This this Plaid platform probably won't be seeing the inside of the statute books any time soon, as it looks guaranteed to bring bankruptcy or deficit spending to the govt in a big way.

Well, one of the prerogatives of minority parties is that they're able to make idealistic, blue sky proposals, safe in the knowledge that they'll never have to implement them. But it doesn't mean that none of the component parts are usable, and if I like the Plaid stance on a particular issue, that might incline me more towards them.

By your logic, there isn't a political party that I can vote for, because they're all - to varying degrees - clearly making grandiose promises that I don't imagine any of them have any hope of keeping!

 

[two sheds]

This this Plaid platform probably won't be seeing the inside of the statute books any time soon, as it looks guaranteed to bring bankruptcy or deficit spending to the govt in a big way.

Interesting, which particular bit? I'd have thought the bits in the following that raise revenue would pay for the bits like the living pension for people over 80. Of course, though, if you disagree with a living pension for people over 80 then fair enough .

"It was Plaid Cymru that led the attempt to impeach Tony Blair over the invasion of Iraq. It opposed the conflict in Afghanistan from the outset. It wants to scrap Trident and cancel the aircraft carrier and Eurofighter contracts. It would break up the banks, ban short selling, tax foreign exchange transactions, raise capital gains tax, raise income tax for the rich while reducing it for the poor. It would set a maximum wage and give workers seats on corporate boards.

It seeks to renationalise the railways and curb the power of the supermarkets. It wants a living pension for everyone over 80, to raise benefits in line with average earnings and to scrap tuition fees. It would abandon ID cards, stop detaining asylum seekers and shift sentencing away from prison and towards restorative justice. "

 

[Gravediggers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravediggers View Post
The workers have no need for the self imposed chains of national identity.

Most workers would look at you funny if you started spouting that load of clichéd bollocks at them.

Oh, and you'd best avoid any Wales rugby games as they'd set you off in a right tiswas. All those workers! Calling themselves Welsh! The fools!

In fact most workers I've talked to have agreed my international perspective relates to the real world and that nationalism is a load of clichéd bollocks. I've yet to come across a rugby hooligan, and I've found - contrary to your nationalist expectations - that most rugby fans enjoy a good game regardless who wins.

 

[editor]

In fact most workers I've talked to have agreed my international perspective relates to the real world and that nationalism is a load of clichéd bollocks. I've yet to come across a rugby hooligan, and I've found - contrary to your nationalist expectations - that most rugby fans enjoy a good game regardless who wins.

Where do you work, then? And who are these "workers" you're talking about?

Meanwhile, in the real world, here's what a Welsh rugby crowd looks like. They like to sing the national anthem too. With passion.

I've absolutely no idea why you're bringing hooliganism in to this. Perhaps you might explain? Thanks.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

This this Plaid platform probably won't be seeing the inside of the statute books any time soon, as it looks guaranteed to bring bankruptcy or deficit spending to the govt in a big way.

Rather like the council of beardy religious nutters (or whatever it's called) having a veto over policy in Iran, a bunch of fucking investment bankers get a veto over policy here. Better suits, same problem for people who want to call it 'democracy'.

 

[Gravediggers]

Where do you work, then? And who are these "workers" you're talking about?

Meanwhile, in the real world, here's what a Welsh rugby crowd looks like. They like to sing the national anthem too. With passion.

I've absolutely no idea why you're bringing hooliganism in to this. Perhaps you might explain? Thanks.

I'm retired but still working in a voluntary capacity. And the workers I'm talking about come from a similar heritage and recognise we are all mongrels. Yes the Welsh fans are renowned for the passion when singing the anthem, although few of them know the meaning of the lyrics. Perhaps you could enlighten us?

I assumed by the inclusion of "tiswas" you meant I would get roughed up by the rugby Welsh fans for my views. I hope I assumed wrongly? For that has never been my experience even when Wales have lost! Like I said most rugby fans are after a good game, albeit whoever wins.

 

[Gravediggers]

Originally Posted by Gravediggers View Post
My self-identity as a citizen of the world enables my to envisage a world without borders (physically and mentally), where sharing the world resources in common means the market, private and state ownership along with money are obsolete and no longer a hinderance to social and individual improvement.

See, I can do all that and still be Welsh

And have English, Jewish and Indian ancestry as well.

Quite true but that does not necessarily make you a welsh nationalist. There's a big difference between accepting national self-identity and agreeing with nationalism. Has the Plaid vote illustrates this distinction is made by Welsh voters at every general election.

 

[editor]

I assumed by the inclusion of "tiswas" you meant I would get roughed up by the rugby Welsh fans for my views. I hope I assumed wrongly? For that has never been my experience even when Wales have lost! Like I said most rugby fans are after a good game, albeit whoever wins.

I meant that you'd get in a state ("a tiswas") at the game because your ludicrous views about what the 'workers' of Wales supposedly believe about their own country would turn out to be utter fantasy.

Did you notice all those Welsh flags being waved about with pride?

 

[Gravediggers]

I meant that you'd get in a state ("a tiswas") at the game because your ludicrous views about what the 'workers' of Wales supposedly believe about their own country would turn out to be utter fantasy.

Did you notice all those Welsh flags being waved about with pride?

I agree there is a spark of nationalism mirrored at such events but how many of those rugby fans actually see themselves as 'Welsh nationalists'. Even Plaid politicians admit that the so called 'Welsh nationalism' expressed at international rugby games is, I'm glad to say, not reflected at the polling stations.

 

[editor]

I agree there is a spark of nationalism mirrored at such events but how many of those rugby fans actually see themselves as 'Welsh nationalists'. Even Plaid politicians admit that the so called 'Welsh nationalism' expressed at international rugby games is, I'm glad to say, not reflected at the polling stations.

You don't have to be a "Welsh nationalist" to vote Plaid.

 

[Gravediggers]

You don't have to be a "Welsh nationalist" to vote Plaid.

Surely a vote for Plaid is confirmation that the voter supports welsh nationalism? I would be interested in how you identify welsh nationalism?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I don't. They're not. I was making a point about other parties that are claimed to be similar to the Pc in their aims. Can you think of any?

Closest to Plaid this side of Offa's Dyke are surely GPEW?

 

[ernestolynch]

Surely a vote for Plaid is confirmation that the voter supports welsh nationalism? I would be interested in how you identify welsh nationalism?

If you don't support Welsh (or Scottish or Irish) nationalism you are a British nationalist/unionist.

Typical fucking trot.

 

[Random]

The Welsh had their best chance to break free just after the battle of Crécy. The Welsh archers in the English army should have mutinied, slaughtered their English lord commanders and, using their superior weaponry, carved out a Swiss-style republic in the western British isles.

 

[JimW]

The Welsh had their best chance to break free just after the battle of Crécy. The Welsh archers in the English army should have mutinied, slaughtered their English lord commanders and, using their superior weaponry, carved out a Swiss-style republic in the western British isles.

Ever there with the timely political advice, Random