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Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster

I think another dimension to this disaster are the actions of the management:

Tepco chief spent week secluded in office

Maybe the guy was agonising over whether to fall on his sword?
Such lack of leadership in a time of crisis may have been critical. From what I hear of Japanese culture, I gather that taking the initiative, without the permission of one's superiors, is "not the done thing" in Japan?

ETA
Maybe he was worried that
TEPCO May Be Held Liable for Nuclear Plant Explosions
:eek:

Meanwhile, the money-jugglers are gettin spooked:
Tepco shares fall on talk of state takeover
:rolleyes:
 
It seems I was a bit out of date when I said there were no clear indicators that corium breached the containment vessel. or at the very least this bloke tells the Guardian that there are signs this has probably happened:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/29/japan-lost-race-save-nuclear-reactor

I dont know the exact details of the data that lead him to this conclusion. Certainly its been clear for ages that reactor 2 is fucked. The news about the noise near its suppression chamber, various pressure readings etc tell us this. The news about the radioactive water confirms that stuff is leaking out. But I dont know what data exactly demonstrates that this means for certain that some of the core has fallen through. I mean its always been reasonable to think this is quite possible, especially as we know some fuel damage has occurred, I just dont know enough to say which bit of data points heavily in this direction right now. I dont know if he has seen radiation level info that I havent that would confirm it, or whether he is referring to the data about the highly radioactive water that has left the building.
 
i cant add to the insightful comments on this thread, but can i just say im shit scared that the whole of japan is going to have no safe water, and the fish in the sea are going to end up like this
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that fear may not be fully justified, and if someone can explain why itll never happen id be happy, but the way the news of this has 'developed'... doesnt bear thinking about
 
Well Im not an expert, but it would take a silly amount of nuclear horror for a whole countries water supply to become unsafe. I guess you would need a lot of nuclear bombs to achieve such a thing, and the nuclear reactors that have gone to poop dont really have the ability to explode in that way. I havent studied where Japans water comes from but I struggle to imagine how even multiple worse-case scenarios at the various reactors and fuel pools would cause quite that much harm.

Humans exploded a really stupid amount of nuclear bombs during the testing decades, and this has had consequences for the globe, it was a very bad idea indeed. But it gives us some clue as to what sort of consequences we are talking about here, as do events like Chernobyl. Whole towns abandoned for many generations, some nightmares for farmers over a wider area that last for a long time, some overall increase in cancer that experts argue about forever, which at least tells us that its not such a big issue that it becomes utterly undeniable.

As for mutations due to radiation, it seems that from what we know so far, they are not very interesting. Some mould or fungus on the walls of Chernobyl that scientists found interesting, and some type of bird in the area that showed signs of stunted tail-feathers.

There may well be an issue with fish for human consumption though, nuclear pollution entering the food chain can cause problems and under certain circumstances can magnify the scale of the problem, but I'll just have to wait and see how all this plays out over quite a long time period.
 
I assume the ultimate temperature of the melt would depend on the mass of the molten material and the equilibrium between internal heat generation and conduction/radiation of heat away from the melt. I presume it could get awfully hot - enough to easily melt steel and even concrete with which it is said to react chemically.

The melting temperature is determined by the particular material. How hot the liquid gets is determined by the heat source (volumetric heat rate) and heat transfer mechanism (conduction, convection, thermal radiation)

My own question: imagine a suspended fuel rod undergoing partial melt - the cladding melts on one place - does the lower end of the rod then drop to the bottom of the containment? It seems the cladding alone gives the rod structural integrity?

Reactor cooling is presently being achieved by 'injection' using fire pumps and others -considering the required volume of water one must assume that this is a closed, albeit leaky, loop. How does this mode of cooling differ from the one which failed after the tsumami and which we are told they are trying desperately to restore?

The heat source currently is the decay of fission products in the ceramic fuel pellets minus that which has been lost to the coolant (water or steam). Some fission products are gases (Xe, Kr), and some are volatiles (i.e., low melting point, e.g., Cs, I), some of which are soluble in water.

The Zircaloy-2 cladding surrounds the ceramic pellets, but it has certainly breached (cracked or corroded) and MAY have melting IF the cladding temperature reached ~1800°C.
The fuel rods sit between stainless steel (SS304) tie plates. Stainless steel melts at ~1400-1450°C. Only if cooling is insufficient, i.e., stagnant superheated steam could the steel or Zircaloy reaches those temperatures. If water is present - it boils, so those temperatures would not be realized. If the steam is 'wet' or 'moist', then those temperatures are not realized.

Nevertheless, before those temperatures are reached, the Zircaloy-2 would chemically react with the steam/water as in oxidation/corrosion. In that case, the Zircaloy-2 cladding may open up through cracks or ruptured hydride blisters, in which case the water/steam can communicate with the ceramic pellets. That's how the fuel particles and fission products get out.

If the bottom tie plate is not uncovered, i.e., if the water level covers the bottom tie plate, it won't melt. Any broken away cladding or fuel pellet may fall between the gaps between the fuel pellets. About every 20 inches, spacer grids are located, and they would tend to capture fuel pellet fragments and pieces of cladding. Wherever water is present, the fuel does not melt.

BWR fuel assemblies are surrounded by Zircaloy-2 channels (which facilitate the axial/vertical flow of coolant in the core). These channels (assuming they don't melt) would confined the fuel fragments and cladding to the box formed by the channel and bottom tie plate.

The bottom tie plate sits on a block of stainless steel. If covered by water, it does not melt. Then there is the structure underneath the core that contains the control rod drives. If there is water there, that does not melt.

All of the above sits inside a stainless steel lined pressure vessel of carbon steel. If water is in the bottom of the pressure vessel, it does not melt. Underneath the pressure vessel is several thicknesses of steel reinforced concrete. I expect that the bottom of containment is flooded with water. As long as there is water present - there is no melting.
ok
 
The sea is a terrible refiner pollution including radiation because Fish refine them in their own bodies during their lifetime. And if you are eaten by big fish who eat lots of small fish, and then the bigger fish itself eaten. Harmful stuff getsconcentrated in the food chain.
 
I think the only reason its a headline right now is because TEPCO now admitted this.

I believe the government have suggested that some sort of special material may be put around the reactors to reduce further release. At least one report described this as some sort of cloth. A different government department has recently spoken of the possibility that cooling operations will go on for years.

And the TEPCO president, who it was reported was 'sick' during the first week of the crisis, has checked himself into hospital with high blood pressure and dizziness.
 
Some useful and interesting info here

The NRC and Nuclear Power Plant Safety in 2010 - A Brighter Spotlight Needed
makes for an interesting read:
Authored by UCS nuclear engineer David Lochbaum, the report examines 14 “near-misses” at U.S. nuclear plants during 2010 and evaluates the NRC response in each case. The events exposed a variety of shortcomings, such as inadequate training, faulty maintenance, poor design, and failure to investigate problems thoroughly.

This makes me believe that nukes are too dangerous to be operated by private corporations, who will always seek to cut corners and maximize short-term profit.
 
Does anyone know how to convert roentgens to millisieverts or vise versa?

The reason I'm asking is because I'm trying to make a comparison with the measurments taken in Chernobyl to try and fully understand the levels that are being emitted.

I've been led to believe that the roentgen measurement is no longer in use to measure radioactivity.
 

Interesting piece. And from Private Eye last issue under "Number Crunching":

200,000: Number of people evacuated from the area around the Fukushima nuclear power plants after the earthquake and tsunami destabilised their reactors
29: Number of times that Tepco (owner of the Fukushima nuclear power plant) was found to have falsified safety records to conceal damage to reactors after a whistleblower alerted the authorities in 2002.

When it's all over and we get final (?) radiation maps, it will be interesting to see the effects if the winds hadn't blown a lot of it out to sea as it seems to have done.
 
This makes me believe that nukes are too dangerous to be operated by private corporations, who will always seek to cut corners and maximize short-term profit.

I would go further and say that the problem is that nuclear stuff is too dangerous to be operated by humans. No matter how high the stakes, if you do a job or manage something for a long time, its almost impossible not to start becoming complacent. Throw in a load of academic and 'expert' arrogance, commercial interests, running reactors well beyond their designated lifetime, and its almost a wonder we dont have more problems with nuclear facilities than we have to date.
 
I would go further and say that the problem is that nuclear stuff is too dangerous to be operated by humans. No matter how high the stakes, if you do a job or manage something for a long time, its almost impossible not to start becoming complacent. Throw in a load of academic and 'expert' arrogance, commercial interests, running reactors well beyond their designated lifetime, and its almost a wonder we dont have more problems with nuclear facilities than we have to date.

It's a fucking miracle.

Maybe there should be a rotation of staff, similar to that I have seen in India to minimize corruption?
:hmm:
 
Dunno, such issues could be tackled seriously on multiple fronts, but this will only serve to highlight how costly nuclear really is, and humanity could decide that it isnt worth the hassle. In my book this would be the sanest idea, (ie give up on nuclear completely) but Im not expecting to it happen, because the consequences of losing nuclear as a source of electric generation is too dramatic, especially in this age where we have enough other energy woes in the making.
 
Now then, what a contrast this week is in terms of the tone of the news, compared to earlier on when it felt like there was a concerted attempt to deliver good news in the forum of positive progress almost every day. Just take todays developments for example:

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/30_39.html

The chief of the Tokyo Electric Power Company says he cannot now present a road map for resolving the serious accident at the firm's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, as many factors remain unclear.

TEPCO Chairman Tsunehisa Katsumata made the remark at a news conference on Wednesday.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/30_26.html

The operator of the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has suspended work to move highly radioactive water from the basement of the turbine building into the turbine condenser at the No. 1 reactor.

Tokyo Electric Power Company suspended the operation on Tuesday morning after the condenser became full of water.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/30_25.html

Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says air may be leaking from the No 2 and No 3 reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant.

The agency was responding at a news conference on Wednesday to speculation that low pressure inside the 2 reactors was due to possible damage to the reactors' pressure vessels.

It said some of their data show pressure is low, but there is no indication of large cracks or holes in the reactor vessels.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/30_22.html

Japanese nuclear safety officials say radioactive iodine and cesium have been found in water at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant coming from a tunnel outside the turbine building of the No.1 reactor.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says the levels of radioactive substances detected are low, at one-to-ten percent of those occurring in an operating nuclear reactor.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/30_29.html

Japan's agriculture ministry is to check soil around the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant for radiation, before the start of rice planting next month.

Levels of radioactive cesium-137 as high as 2,200 times the normal figure have been detected in soil about 40 kilometers northwest of the plant.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/30_32.html

The environmental group Greenpeace is urging the Japanese government to evacuate children and pregnant women from areas farther away than 30 kilometers from the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

Greenpeace sent an international team of experts to measure radiation levels in the air at 7 locations in Fukushima Prefecture over the weekend.

The team told reporters in Tokyo on Wednesday that radiation levels as high as 8 to 10 microsieverts per hour were detected near the Iitate village office, 40 kilometers northwest of the plant, on Sunday.
 
I would go further and say that the problem is that nuclear stuff is too dangerous to be operated by humans. No matter how high the stakes, if you do a job or manage something for a long time, its almost impossible not to start becoming complacent. Throw in a load of academic and 'expert' arrogance, commercial interests, running reactors well beyond their designated lifetime, and its almost a wonder we dont have more problems with nuclear facilities than we have to date.

Speaking of which, how about this for a barrel of laughs? :facepalm:
 
From NYT

<quote>A long-lasting radioactive element has been measured at levels that pose a long-term danger at one spot 25 miles from the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, raising questions about whether Japan’s evacuation zone should be expanded and even whether the land might need to be abandoned...

The international team, using a measure of radioactivity called the becquerel, found as much as 3.7 million becquerels per square meter; the standard used at Chernobyl was 1.48 million.</quote>

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/world/asia/31japan.html?_r=1&hp
 
Just been watching the new over here in Japan and nobody seems all that worried. Still the devistation and reloaction of people after the Tsunami is the top story. There are constant updates on the plant though, with some very helpful video diagrams/
 
They should have done what they did at Chernobyl and dump sand/boron/clay/lead onto them as soon as they blew up.
 
Full Meltdown? Japan Maximum Nuclear Alert
Christopher Busby confirms fears I've had about this since seeing those explosions.
Oh shit. I think this is going to get very bad.
:(

What exactly is he confirming? It was obvious that the explosions were bad, but he adds very little to this. He says the fuel rods went up in the air, which is possible, but I dont know as there is any actual evidence of this at the moment. He goes on about a million deaths at Chernobyl, which in my mind is very hard to prove. Yes the industry and governments like to play stuff down, and the way the evacuation has been handled is nothing less than a disgrace. And Im quite sure there is plenty more bad news to come, although Im not exactly sure when.

Anyway the evacuation stuff is now receiving plenty of attention due to the high readings at that location north west of the plant that is outside the exclusion zone. And so it should.

So where are we at? Its been more strongly admitted this week that the shape of reactors 2 & 3 is bad. But Im also interested in reactor 1, where the possibility of recriticality seems to exist from time to time. eg:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...und-in-sea-near-crippled-nuclear-reactor.html

The potential for limited, uncontrolled chain reactions, voiced yesterday by the International Atomic Energy Agency, is among the phenomena that might occur, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told reporters in Tokyo today. The IAEA "emphasized that the nuclear reactors won’t explode," he said.

I havent found the original IAEA words about this yet, but here is the part of their March 30th report that highlights the contamination/evacuation issue:

Based on measurements of I-131 and Cs-137 in soil, sampled from 18 to 26 March in 9 municipalities at distances of 25 to 58 km from the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant, the total deposition of iodine-131 and cesium-137 has been calculated. The results indicate a pronounced spatial variability of the total deposition of iodine-131 and cesium-137. The average total deposition determined at these locations for iodine-131 range from 0.2 to 25 Megabecquerel per square metre and for cesium-137 from 0.02-3.7 Megabecquerel per square metre. The highest values were found in a relatively small area in the Northwest from the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant. First assessment indicates that one of the IAEA operational criteria for evacuation is exceeded in Iitate village. We advised the counterpart to carefully assess the situation. They indicated that they are already assessing.

(from the March 30th update here http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html )
 
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