French magazine publishes controversial cartoons of Prophet Muhammad - many killed in revenge attack

[Maurice Picarda]

Maybe they could be AQAP and French, being trained, directed or whatever by their Yemeni bosses?

Yes, very possible I guess. Although that still wouldn't make them homegrown in quite the same way as the July 2005 mob.

 

[Dillinger4]

By the sound of it, they are a product of France, just as the London bombers were a product of Britain. I agree that it is bigger, but it still is about Islam. Killing in the name of Mohammad is necessarily about Islam.

What I am trying to say is that history and politics is more important in any analysis here.

 

[Mr Moose]

Why the inverted commas? Because I have profound doubts about the Muslim ideals. It is debatable as to whether it should be classified as a faith, or as a patriarchal system of command and control. I find it absolutely astonishing that anyone who regards themselves as a feminist can espouse the tenets of Islam. Sharia law is deeply biased against women. A woman should be willed half of that willed to a male relative, for example. A man may take four wives, but a woman caught with a 'bit on the side' is stoned to death. Really lovely ideology.

One cannot really cite the Saudi lunatics as being absolutely representative of the Muslim 'faith', but they do base their civil law on the Koran and Sharias. I suppose you could equate them to the 'Christian' lunatics that kill abortion clinic staff.

But consider, you can't doubt that most Muslim people live and have lived as ordinary non-violent lives as anyone else on the planet? If so you can only conclude there is little 'special' about it as a thought system and it will be as peaceful as the world it resides in. We have lived in a world with Muslims on the receiving end of ugly violence for many years. That violence has become a cycle, the version of Islam that suits that becomes the one to the fore, but even then embraced only by a small minority.

 

[Patteran]

My understanding was that they spoke perfectly fluent French. May have got that wrong.

there are at least two conflicting reports - one said 'fluent french', and another said 'bad french'. I think we'll have to wait & see on this point, & it's implications about the background of the attackers.

 

[8115]

I dunno. Disassociating yourself from a wrongdoer to imply disapproval, is that a universal trait? I'm pretty reluctant to go down this road because I think that even engaging with Islamaphobes affords them respectability and equally I get quite uncomfortable talking about homogenous communities such as of Muslims or saying, all Muslims are like this because thats close to if not racism. And I don't know that on a message board on the day of a possible Islamic fundamentalist attack is a great time to talk about these things.

Basically I despair when people start up the stuff they do, inevitably, every single time this happens.

 

[elbows]

I thought they claimed to be AQAP?

Even if such claims are verified, I'm not sure it tells us very much about nationalities and histories of the attackers. It might give strong clues about where they were trained, who armed them and whose propaganda they bought into most, but theres far more to the stories of their lives than that.

As for Islamist groups that still have the term Al Qaeda in their 'brand', are there many left other than AQAP these days?

 

[Pickman's model]

I dunno. Disassociating yourself from a wrongdoer to imply disapproval, is that a universal trait? I'm pretty reluctant to go down this road because I think that even engagingnwith Islamaphobes affords them respectability and equally I get quite uncomfortable talking about homogenous communities such as of Muslims or saying, all Muslims are like this because thats close to if not racism. And I don't know that on a message board on the day of a possible Islam ic fundamentalist attack is a great time to talk about these things.

Basically I despair when people start up the stuff they do, inevitably, every single time this happens.

yeh. every time something happens the fash get an outing and a free pass.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What I am trying to say is that history and politics is more important in any analysis here.

You can chart the reasons why Islamists have gained politically in the last few decades. But they will still be Islamists doing Islamist things and justifying them with their particular interpretation of the Quran.

I don't have any answers really. I got it very wrong about the UK. Twenty years ago, I assumed that the second and third generation Pakistani British would turn out generally less religious and more secular in their outlook than their parents and grandparents. I was wrong.

 

[Blagsta]

Why the inverted commas? Because I have profound doubts about the Muslim ideals. It is debatable as to whether it should be classified as a faith, or as a patriarchal system of command and control. I find it absolutely astonishing that anyone who regards themselves as a feminist can espouse the tenets of Islam. Sharia law is deeply biased against women. A woman should be willed half of that willed to a male relative, for example. A man may take four wives, but a woman caught with a 'bit on the side' is stoned to death. Really lovely ideology.

One cannot really cite the Saudi lunatics as being absolutely representative of the Muslim 'faith', but they do base their civil law on the Koran and Sharias. I suppose you could equate them to the 'Christian' lunatics that kill abortion clinic staff.

Oh fuck off.

 

[JimW]

there are at least two conflicting reports - one said 'fluent french', and another said 'bad french'. I think we'll have to wait & see on this point, & it's implications about the background of the attackers.

Could both be true and it's one native, one recent immigrant, perhaps

 

[BigMoaner]

errrrrrr how the fuck could they still be on teh run? that's what i don't get? they'd pretty much have to disappear into thin air if they wanted to escape...bizarre.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

Could both be true and it's one native, one recent immigrant, perhaps

You'd probably want at least one person in a three man cell who could decipher a menu with confidence and ask passers-by for directions.

 

[Sirena]

This is all leading somewhere very dark. Sometime in the future some of us might look back on all of this and feel deeply ashamed.

That was worth saying.

 

[SpookyFrank]

oh but that copper who held out his hand and no doubt begged them not shoot was just a symbol of western oppression and the murder of the people in their lands and the stealing of their resources.

what a load of old shit.

Where did you get any of that from?

 

[elbows]

tbh military hand signals aren't exactly a state secret. any terrorist worth his salt is going to have carried out some training, and when ears might be ringing from gunshots using signals a fairly obvious thing to do.

I suspect there will be some surprise, and inevitable conspiracy theories, in regard to the sort of attack that we've seen today because so many of the terrorist attacks after 9/11 were of a rather different format and calibre. The attacks that most often drew the attention of western audiences seemed to consist mostly of bombers with varying degrees of aptitude and suicidal tendencies. I guess it was probably the Mumbai attacks that started to change that perception.

 

[Citizen66]

oh but that copper who held out his hand and no doubt begged them not shoot was just a symbol of western oppression and the murder of the people in their lands and the stealing of their resources.

what a load of old shit.

Who's arguing that?

 

[brogdale]

Really classy interview performance from Farage on C4 News...he spoke of the "Fifth columnists" living amongst us, holding our passports, but hating us...all very helpful.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

errrrrrr how the fuck could they still be on teh run? that's what i don't get? they'd pretty much have to disappear into thin air if they wanted to escape...bizarre.

Or just hole up somewhere near-ish in a prearranged safe house. Not so odd, really.

 

[Citizen66]

Yes, I do find it a bit odd when this kind of attack is described as cowardly. If they were resistance fighters in a war, they'd be described and brave, surely.

Shooting civilians?

 

[editor]

OK, I've amended the title to read: "French magazine publishes controversial cartoons of Prophet Muhammad - many killed in revenge attack"

I can't really muster the energy for the avenge/revenge debate, so I''ll leave it as it is. It's hardly the most important thing in this dreadful story.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

the "Fifth columnists" living amongst us, holding our passports, but hating us...

Aren't they his voters?

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

Quite right. Anders Breivik stuck to a youth camp.

Yeah, I remember the news reports about him shouting "Jesus is great! His father is greater!!!"

 

[Mr Moose]

Assume for a moment that the islamaphobes are correct, and Islam is a backward medival whatever religion.

What is the answer? Round them up and send them all back to where they came from? Reeducation into secularism and atheism? Extermination?

These are people who are claiming that they represent Western Enlighenment values, yet they display no rationality, no historical analysis, just simple prejudice.

This is all leading somewhere very dark. Sometime in the future some of us might look back on all of this and feel deeply ashamed.

We need to talk much more distinctly about Fundamentalist Islam and Islam. No one should be criticising Islam in any hateful or disrespectful way. And no one should oppose slagging off Fundamentalism. The distinction isn't a problem when we relate it to Christianity.

 

[quiquaquo]

Assume for a moment that the islamaphobes are correct, and Islam is a backward medival whatever religion.

What is the answer? Round them up and send them all back to where they came from? Reeducation into secularism and atheism? Extermination?

These are people who are claiming that they represent Western Enlighenment values, yet they display no rationality, no historical analysis, just simple prejudice.

This is all leading somewhere very dark. Sometime in the future some of us might look back on all of this and feel deeply ashamed.

In fact there certainly exists a hadith that states the Muslims in future will go through the same persecution that Jews will suffer "as one shoe in a pair is to another". (Tirmidhi IIRC)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No one should be criticising Islam in any hateful or disrespectful way. .

Why not? If they hate Islam, why should they keep quiet about it?

 

[Dillinger4]

You can chart the reasons why Islamists have gained politically in the last few decades. But they will still be Islamists doing Islamist things and justifying them with their particular interpretation of the Quran.

I don't have any answers really. I got it very wrong about the UK. Twenty years ago, I assumed that the second and third generation Pakistani British would turn out generally less religious and more secular in their outlook than their parents and grandparents. I was wrong.

Islamism doesn't exist in isolation.

 

[telbert]

Yes, I do find it a bit odd when this kind of attack is described as cowardly. If they were resistance fighters in a war, they'd be described and brave, surely.

Yeah the brave,brave resistance fighters that stood up to the agressive,oppressive cartoonists and journalists that were armed to the teeth with pointy pencils and razor sharp wit.

 

[treelover]

Angola has denounced Islam as terrorist and is tearing down all their Mosques. That"s a start. Bravo !!!

Posted on the Uk Pediga site, rubbish?

 

[DaveCinzano]

 

[Pickman's model]

I suspect there will be some surprise, and inevitable conspiracy theories, in regard to the sort of attack that we've seen today because so many of the terrorist attacks after 9/11 were of a rather different format and calibre. The attacks that most often drew the attention of western audiences seemed to consist mostly of bombers with varying degrees of aptitude and suicidal tendencies. I guess it was probably the Mumbai attacks that started to change that perception.

it would be surprising if the style of attacks and the calibre of the people carrying them out didn't change. the successful attacks of sept 11 showed one way of attacking the far enemy, but suicide attacks do tend to mean that useful militants only have one mission in them. even mumbai was more of a suicide attack than what we've seen today, which could be the start of a series of attacks by a well-trained, motivated and equipped active service unit. what will probably be happening now is french police and security services examining cctv footage to see whether any form of hostile reconnaissance was carried out recently: although with the internet it's not like people have to visit somewhere to start familiarising themselves with the terrain and working out an escape route.