French magazine publishes controversial cartoons of Prophet Muhammad - many killed in revenge attack

[Greebo]

<snip> Can she emancipate herself?

What the fuck makes that any business of yours? What, indeed, leads you to assume that woman's garb and how she behaved were not her own choice, freely made?

It's not a choice I'd make, but *shrug*. If you prefer to see fewer (ie none at all ?) niqab wearers in head to toe black and apparently acting submissively, you're starting from entirely the wrong place.

 

[Anudder Oik]

What the fuck makes that any business of yours? What, indeed, leads you to assume that woman's garb and how she behaved were not her own choice, freely made?

It's not a choice I'd make, but *shrug*. If you prefer to see fewer (ie none at all ?) niqab wearers in head to toe black and apparently acting submissively, you're starting from entirely the wrong place.

Apology for mysogony is ok only when it's committed by Brown people, so, you're safe.

 

[Pickman's model]

Apology for mysogony is ok only when it's committed by Brown people, so, you're safe.

you're one of those i see.

 

[Greebo]

Apology for mysogony is ok only when it's committed by Brown people, so, you're safe.

Fuck off sweetie. I fail to see why you come to a thread like this when you can neither stay on topic nor argue your way out of a wet paper bag, even with scissors in both hands.

Edited to add: BTW can I assume that you've never come across any white Muslims?

 

[phildwyer]

The other day I was in a shopping centre, I saw one woman covered from head to toe in black, there was a slit for her to be able to see where she was going. She was walking two meters behind the man who accompanied her.

Can she emancipate herself?

What makes you think she's unemancipated?

 

[Greebo]

What makes you think she's unemancipated?

Exactly.

 

[brogdale]

Exactly.

Yes, but playing "theological noncognitivist's advocate" here...whilst not seeking to ally myself with the distasteful comments above...would it not be reasonable to argue that any individual choosing to dress/behave in a conservative manner determined by an organised religion, might be in a position from where they could potentially be freed from traditional social restraints. (Obviously, any individual who was compelled to dress/behave in a particular way would, to some extent be unemancipated).

 

[Greebo]

Yes, but playing "theological noncognitivist's advocate" here...whilst not seeking to ally myself with the distasteful comments above...would it not be reasonable to argue that any individual choosing to dress/behave in a conservative manner determined by an organised religion, might be in a position from where they could potentially be freed from traditional social restraints. (Obviously, any individual who was compelled to dress/behave in a particular way would, to some extent be unemancipated).

Yes, but you can't force somebody to be free (as you define it) unless they want to be.

Therefore, the first step would be treating a niqab wearer as just another ordinary human being, and letting them feel safe in public.

 

[Anudder Oik]

What the fuck makes that any business of yours? What, indeed, leads you to assume that woman's garb and how she behaved were not her own choice, freely made?

It's not a choice I'd make, but *shrug*. If you prefer to see fewer (ie none at all ?) niqab wearers in head to toe black and apparently acting submissively, you're starting from entirely the wrong place.

Going by this reply, anything one sees or hears is not their business, so, why have an opinion on anything? What'smore, I haven't actually stated an opinion in that post, just asked a question after describing something I saw.

I have asked if that woman can emancipate herself. My question has obviously not been taken on face value and something else has been read into it. The question is What?

Question: Can this woman emancipate herself?

Answer: Fuck off, it's none of your business, what are you doing on this forum?

Here's another question. What the hell is the premise with some posters on this forum because some people seem definiteley to be in some kind of ultra left orbit.

 

[Greebo]

<snip> I have asked if that woman can emancipate herself. My question has obviously not been taken on face value and something else has been read into it. The question is What?

Question: Can this woman emancipate herself? <snip>

Look into my eyes, not around the eyes, you will pay attention to every word I write, instead of the ones you expect - and we're back in the room.

Asking if a niqab wearer, with what a western male perceives as a submissive manner, can emancipate herself is a non question based on false assumptions. You observed that woman once, for a few minutes at most. You didn't even speak to her or the man with her.

 

[brogdale]

Yes, but you can't force somebody to be free (as you define it) unless they want to be.

Therefore, the first step would be treating a niqab wearer as just another ordinary human being, and letting them feel safe in public.

True enough, but the question posed asked if a woman wearing the niqab could emancipate herself. Surely, the answer is yes, if she wanted to? But, I suppose, the implied question was whether or not the hypothetically desired emancipation would be more challenging for the particular individual described.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Greebos logic applied in a different field.

- I saw some proles, they were wearing chains grafted onto them thru centuries of indoctrination and exploitation. How can they emancipate themselves?'

- What the fuck makes that any business of yours? blah blah blah, What, indeed, leads you to assume that it is not their own choice, freely made?

 

[Greebo]

True enough, but the question posed asked if a woman wearing the niqab could emancipate herself. Surely, the answer is yes, if she wanted to? But, I suppose, the implied question was whether or not the hypothetically desired emancipation would be more challenging for the particular individual described.

The thing is, what anudder oik thinks emancipation looks like might be very different to how that woman defines and perceives it. As far as she's concerned, she might well experience more emancipation as she is than in how she sees more westernised women living.

 

[brogdale]

Greebos logic applied in a different field.

- I saw some proles, they were wearing chains grafted onto them thru centuries of indoctrination and exploitation. How can they emancipate themselves?'

- What the fuck makes that any business of yours? blah blah blah, What, indeed, leads you to assume that it is not their own choice, freely made?

You sure you want to take to the field of logic?

 

[Anudder Oik]

Look into my eyes, not around the eyes, you will pay attention to every word I write, instead of the ones you expect - and we're back in the room.

Asking if a niqab wearer, with what a western male perceives as a submissive manner, can emancipate herself is a non question based on false assumptions. You observed that woman once, for a few minutes at most. You didn't even speak to her or the man with her.

Even though I only caught a fleeting glimpse of one of these women, she looked pitifully oppressed to me. I don't think they are free to talk to anyone. Oppression converted into tradition and accepted as a form of identity is still oppression.

I know and regularly see two muslim women. One wears a headscarf, the other doesn't. I'm going to ask them what they think of the matter.

 

[Anudder Oik]

The thing is, what anudder oik thinks emancipation looks like might be very different to how that woman defines and perceives it. As far as she's concerned, she might well experience more emancipation as she is than in how she sees more westernised women living.

Do you write spin for dictators?

 

[brogdale]

The thing is, what anudder oik thinks emancipation looks like might be very different to how that woman defines and perceives it. As far as she's concerned, she might well experience more emancipation as she is than in how she sees more westernised women living.

I get that completely, and its absurd for anyone to make a judgement, either way, based upon such an observation in the street.

Most individuals we pass in the street will be unemancipated by some factor(s) to some extent, but anyone choosing to conform to a personal code determined by an organised supernatural belief system is deliberately indicating that they do not seek to be emancipated from those strictures.

 

[Greebo]

Do you write spin for dictators?

Seeing and arguing at least three sides of anything (even when the subject bores you rigid) is part and parcel of every languages course once you get beyond a certain level.

Have you read anything about macropolitics or international relations? One of the first things looked at is (or was) the fact that every political system in the modern world claims to be a democracy and, by their own standards and definitions, all of them are right.

It all depends on which political (or otherwise) model you use when you look at something.

 

[frogwoman]

Of course peoples choices dont take place in a vacuum tho.

 

[brogdale]

Of course peoples choices dont take place in a vacuum tho.

Patriarchy? Capitalism?

 

[frogwoman]

I get that completely, and its absurd for anyone to make a judgement, either way, based upon such an observation in the street.

Most individuals we pass in the street will be unemancipated by some factor(s) to some extent, but anyone choosing to conform to a personal code determined by an organised supernatural belief system is deliberately indicating that they do not seek to be emancipated from those strictures.

We dont know that she chose it or if she did what sort of pressure or cultural assumptions, if any, led her to make that choice

Bit hard to discuss something so anecdotally tbh

 

[frogwoman]

Patriarchy? Capitalism?

Exactly, so defending stuff on the grounds that its a choice is often a bit suspect imo

Not that you're doing this greebo but i think there are serious issues around women and modesty codes in religion (and islam is not unique in this) and it doesnt hurt to discuss this

 

[Greebo]

<snip>Not that you're doing this greebo but i think there are serious issues around women and modesty codes in religion (and islam is not unique in this) and it doesnt hurt to discuss this

Okay then, why are you (and anudder oik) bringing it up here?

Why not start a fresh thread, where you can discuss what I've long since (ie long before the start of this thread) argued out to my heart's content and then some?

Sorry, this is what sticking hearts together does.

 

[frogwoman]

Okay then, why are you (and anudder oik) bringing it up here?

Why not start a fresh thread, where you can discuss what I've long since (ie long before the start of this thread) argued out to my heart's content and then some?

Sorry, this is what sticking hearts together does.

No worries, hope you're ok. Im not entirely sure what my position on any of this is tbh, thats why i was saying that it needs discussed. I didnt mean to seem rude or anything.

 

[Greebo]

frogwoman: No offence taken, just start a fresh and relevant thread - please?

 

[laptop]

Uh-oh...

Shooting at Danish blasphemy seminar

Three police reported shot and wounded at blasphemy debate in Copenhagen where French ambassador was speaking

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.newsweek.com/charlie-hebdo-given-islamophobia-award-muslim-group-312392

Charlie Hebdo given 'islamophobia award'

 

[rekil]

Le Pen will be very happy right now. This might open up the gaps between the trad far right and the newer soral/dieudonne types though.

Soral had a fight with an internet nazi on a Dieudonne hosted thing the other day.

Peculiar comment from the london black revs in there. Or maybe not so peculiar if that's their normal thing.