French magazine publishes controversial cartoons of Prophet Muhammad - many killed in revenge attack

[Knotted]

It's both utterly predictable and genuinely amazing that this attack has been discussed in the usual terms of identity, culture, multi-culuturalism, French assimilationism and even free speech and of course the nebulous concept of "radical Islam". We are told that the attackers are searching for identity, trapped between cultures, and represent an extreme expression of Muslim hostility to free expression. Yet predictably they are just petty thieves who found religion and tried to do what they thought was something positive with their lives. They weren't looking for a sense of identity but a sense of purpose. Their story is one of working class alienation to the backdrop of the Iraq war. Nobody wants to talk about this in terms of politics. It has to be all the usual crap about culture like everything else is supposedly about these days.

Der Spiegel on the attackers:
http://www.spiegel.de/international...calized-in-search-for-identity-a-1013475.html

Interview with Scott Atran:
http://www.nature.com/news/looking-for-the-roots-of-terrorism-1.16732

Unlike the United States, where immigrants achieve average socioeconomic status and education within a generation, in Europe even after three generations, depending on the country, they’re 5–19 times more likely to be poor or less educated. France has about 7.5% Muslims and [they make] up to 60–75% of the prison population. It’s a very similar situation to black youth in the United States.

The difference is here’s an ideology that appeals to them, it’s something that’s very attractive to more people than you might think. In France, a poll by [ICM Research] showed that 27% of young French people, not just Muslims, between 18 and 24 had a favourable attitude toward the Islamic State. The jihad is the only systemic cultural ideology that’s effective, that’s growing, that’s attractive, that's glorious — that basically says to these young people, “Look, you're on the outs, nobody cares about you, but look what we can do. We can change the world.”

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isi...t_islamic_tradition_a_critique_of_the_femini/


Just found this, haven't read it or the rest of the site yet, but looks an interesting read (although hopefully the group who wrote it have changed their name!)

 

[rekil]

Some reports of shooting in Marseille where Valls is visiting.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Some reports of shooting in Marseille where Valls is visiting.

Twitter reports describe variously masked or hooded gunman or gunmen with Kalashnikoff(s)/AK47(s) now in stand-off with police commandoes. The phrase “troubled Castellane estate” has been bandied about

 

[brogdale]

 

[rekil]

Possibly some drug trade beef?

 

[brogdale]

Possibly some drug trade beef?

Quite possibly...

Stefan De Vries, a French journalist, told Sky News: “The area is sealed now and heavily armed squad teams are in the area.
“There is a very high murder rate but almost all the murders are gang-related. Very few victims are civilians.”
Initial reports suggesting the gunfire may have been linked to a rivalry between drug gangs and was not related to terrorism.

 

[The Boy]

Possibly some drug trade beef?

Was my first though too.

 

[rekil]

Was my first though too.

It just seems like it'd be a strange day to choose to have a beef, when the PM is visiting and cops are all over the place.

 

[brogdale]

Guardian report offers further clues to the timing of the gunfire...

The gunfire happened as Pierre-Marie Bourniquel, the departmental director of public security, was checking that the area was safe before the prime minister’s visit.

Valls is due in Marseille to congratulate local officials and police on their “excellent” results in clamping down on crime in the city.

 

[Idris2002]

Essential reading on Laicite and France:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/w...sm-clashes-with-frances-new-reality.html?_r=0

The takeaway: every country on earth has its own special brand of vicious hypocrisy, and in France that revolves around a system for separating church and state in which all animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

 

[treelover]

UK police force apologises for taking details of Charlie Hebdo readers

Wiltshire force says it has deleted from its system details of four people who bought copies of magazine from a newsagent
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...olice-apologise-details-charlie-hebdo-readers

Only one individual officer, but not good.

 

[frogwoman]

Ffs.

 

[phildwyer]

Essential reading on Laicite and France:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/w...sm-clashes-with-frances-new-reality.html?_r=0

The takeaway: every country on earth has its own special brand of vicious hypocrisy, and in France that revolves around a system for separating church and state in which all animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

Secularism is one thing when directed against an entrenched power like the Catholic church. It looks very different when directed against an alienated and impoverished minority.

 

[brogdale]

Secularism is one thing when directed against an entrenched power like the Catholic church. It looks very different when directed against an alienated and impoverished minority.

So, from that do you propose that the French state retreats from its secular constitution, or makes special accommodation for certain beliefs that happen to be held by poorer minorities?

 

[phildwyer]

So, from that do you propose that the French state retreats from its secular constitution, or makes special accommodation for certain beliefs that happen to be held by poorer minorities?

I think it should stop the selective enforcement of secularism.

 

[bluescreen]

I think it should stop the selective enforcement of secularism.

You mean the burkha ban, or something more?

 

[brogdale]

I think it should stop the selective enforcement of secularism.

Ban people wearing crosses etc?

 

[Greebo]

Ban people wearing crosses etc?

Why stop there? Should kippas be worn in the street? Should orthodox Jewish women display shaven heads in public so that they don't offend anyone by covering their hair? What about chasubles? I'm not convinced that some of the public could handle seeing a Roman Catholic priest's legs in trousers, without a robe over the top when he does home visits etc.

Also, if the French government insists on doing this properly, chaplains (of all faiths and none) should be banned from hospitals and prisons, to avoid unduly influencing people at a very vulnerable time.

 

[brogdale]

Why stop there? Should kippas be worn in the street? Should orthodox Jewish women display shaven heads in public so that they don't offend anyone by covering their hair? What about chasubles? I'm not convinced that some of the public could handle seeing a Roman Catholic priest's legs in trousers, without a robe over the top when he does home visits etc.

Also, if the French government insists on doing this properly, chaplains (of all faiths and none) should be banned from hospitals and prisons, to avoid unduly influencing people at a very vulnerable time.

That would appear to be consistent with Phil's line of argument.

Though it is possible that he was merely implying that the French state should rescind its ban on the wearing of muslim womens' headwear in public?

 

[Pickman's model]

Why stop there? Should kippas be worn in the street? Should orthodox Jewish women display shaven heads in public so that they don't offend anyone by covering their hair? What about chasubles? I'm not convinced that some of the public could handle seeing a Roman Catholic priest's legs in trousers, without a robe over the top when he does home visits etc.

Also, if the French government insists on doing this properly, chaplains (of all faiths and none) should be banned from hospitals and prisons, to avoid unduly influencing people at a very vulnerable time.

all representatives - lay and clergy - of organized religions should be made to wear clown suits.

 

[brogdale]

all representatives - lay and clergy - of organized religions should be made to wear clown suits.

Scarier and scarier.

 

[Pickman's model]

Scarier and scarier.

the archbishop of canterbury taken aback by proposal

 

[brogdale]

the archbishop of canterbury taken aback by proposal

'kinnel Pickman's model...spoiler needed...will no-one think of the children?

 

[Pickman's model]

'kinnel Pickman's model...spoiler needed...will no-one think of the children?

brogdale recently

 

[Greebo]

That would appear to be consistent with Phil's line of argument.

Though it is possible that he was merely implying that the French state should rescind its ban on the wearing of muslim womens' headwear in public?

We must be fair and evenhanded in these matters. A burka is easily spotted, but in order to prevent a Christian being fined for wearing what might be mistaken for a lawbreaking hijab headcovering, headscarves and headcoverings in general should be completely banned in public. So should all hats and wigs, just in case.

Alternatively, people (including the French government) should concentrate a little more on what they believe and their own values, because if it's fragile enough to be damaged by what somebody else is wearing, it doesn't seem that strong to me.

 

[brogdale]

We must be fair and evenhanded in these matters. A burka is easily spotted, but in order to prevent a Christian being fined for wearing what might be mistaken for a lawbreaking hijab headcovering, headscarves and headcoverings in general should be completely banned in public. So should all hats and wigs, just in case.

Alternatively, people (including the French government) should concentrate a little more on what they believe and their own values, because if it's fragile enough to be damaged by what somebody else is wearing, it doesn't seem that strong to me.

Well, quite.

How absurd that a state professing to be secular should seek to prohibit certain modes of dress of its private citizens.

 

[brogdale]

Police called in to help.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-to-queue-for-the-latest-edition-9982122.html

Now we know why...not just one isolated case...

“This is so ridiculous as to be almost laughable. And it would be funny if it didn’t reflect a more general worrying increase in abuse of police powers in invading privacy and stifling free speech in Britain,” said Jodie Ginsberg, chief executive of free expression campaign group Index on Censorship.

 

[butchersapron]

“Visits were made to newsagents who were maybe distributing the Charlie Hebdo magazine to encourage the newsagent owners to be vigilant. We can confirm the visits were only made to enhance public safety and to provide community reassurance.”

“My wife was a bit worried with the questioning but she certainly wouldn’t have given any names to the police. I’m shocked they asked. They wanted to know where we got the copies from, how did we let the customers know that we had them.”

We only did the things that you consider bad for reasons that we consider good. So, where's the problem?

Shopkeeper - get fucked.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Why stop there? Should kippas be worn in the street? Should orthodox Jewish women display shaven heads in public so that they don't offend anyone by covering their hair? What about chasubles? I'm not convinced that some of the public could handle seeing a Roman Catholic priest's legs in trousers, without a robe over the top when he does home visits etc.

Also, if the French government insists on doing this properly, chaplains (of all faiths and none) should be banned from hospitals and prisons, to avoid unduly influencing people at a very vulnerable time.

The other day I was in a shopping centre, I saw one woman covered from head to toe in black, there was a slit for her to be able to see where she was going. She was walking two meters behind the man who accompanied her.

Can she emancipate herself?