JudithB
Well-Known Member
I do not quit easily
Feminism - where are the threads?
- Thread starter JudithB
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8ball
Decolonise colons!
Yeah, it was essentially "free money with no strings attached" (for a limited trial, the "it wasn't U" bit is slightly churlish, but the "BI" bit is fair).
Worryingly, one of the next things the Finnish had on their agenda to try out was Universal Credit (I haven't looked up the results of that yet).
8ball
Decolonise colons!
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
That thread (and my scepticism) covers more than just the Finland trial.
Manter
Lunch Mob
Depends what they mean by universal credit I guess. Simplifying and streamlining a maze of credits and benefits makes a lot of sense- reduces errors, reduces cost of administration, recipients more likely to understand what they get etc. How it’s been done in the UK is absolutely inexcusable.
Also of course worth bearing in mind that Finnish system is so fundamentally different from ours- including their attitude to people in the benefits system, value of work, role of family etc that whatever they do won’t be entirely comparable
wayward bob
i ate all your bees
according to this unimpeachably rigorous source, yes.
Top 10 Most Dangerous Jobs in the World - Curiosity Aroused
8ball
Decolonise colons!
JudithB
Well-Known Member
Here is a nub, the nub (?) of the problem in the UK.
Much of what is understood as "women's work" holds no value. There is little if any real recognition of the actual non-stop, sheer hard slog of mothering and caring for relatives. This undervaluing of this work is realised in the refusal for the state to pay for it and the insistence of women having to better themselves and do other work that is paid, and then paying other women to do the caring for them. This tells women to behave exactly like men do to their wives/partners, upholding the misogynist, hierarchical model.
Is the answer to de-feminise care work? And what does the de-feminisation of care work look like?
JudithB
Well-Known Member
Number 3
And yet the only one that remains mostly illegal and without safety concerns for its workers
Welcome to urban. Fuck it, welcome to life.
By 2pm this afternoon, it's going to be about guns. Or tanks.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
A couple of people have now been banned from the thread.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
FWIW I think it'd be a good thing if sex work stayed taboo. Not illegal - people who buy sex should be criminalised, not people who sell it - but taboo, why not? Is sex work something we aspire to for ourselves or our kids? It's one of the least skilled jobs there is, it's harmful physically and mentally. There may be some who do it because 'they like it', because it suits them, because it brings in the right income with the right level of investment, because they believe objectifying and selling themselves sexually is empowering for them, but I don't believe for a moment this is the majority of sex workers.
Ideally, buying sex would be taboo while selling it were not; I think that would be an impossible combination. If buying sex is taboo, selling it is bound to be taboo as well. And I don't think this is such a bad thing because surely almost any other kind of work is preferable? Maybe for some people, who have been sexualised and objectified from a young age, it is the best thing they can see themselves doing. That, frankly, is tragic.
Maybe I'm just old fashioned. There was a time I was being offered sex work (dancing / stripping anyway, but that can lead to almost anywhere IME) and even though at the time I was struggling for work, I kept looking for something else. Yes, that was my problem, my neurosis let's say, but I believe many people faced with the same choice feel similarly about it. I was lucky, I found other work. I don't know what I'd have ended up doing if that hadn't happened. It's not a time in my life I like to think too much about tbh.
Most sex-workers do not have such a choice. They should not be stigmatized - but the work itself IMO should stay taboo, if only to discourage people from taking it up.
It's a difficult issue but unlike many menz I do have some experience on the 'seller' end, still I am sorry for posting on the subject. It will be my only post on 'sex work' on this thread, even if I get flamed for it.
Ideally, buying sex would be taboo while selling it were not; I think that would be an impossible combination. If buying sex is taboo, selling it is bound to be taboo as well. And I don't think this is such a bad thing because surely almost any other kind of work is preferable? Maybe for some people, who have been sexualised and objectified from a young age, it is the best thing they can see themselves doing. That, frankly, is tragic.
Maybe I'm just old fashioned. There was a time I was being offered sex work (dancing / stripping anyway, but that can lead to almost anywhere IME) and even though at the time I was struggling for work, I kept looking for something else. Yes, that was my problem, my neurosis let's say, but I believe many people faced with the same choice feel similarly about it. I was lucky, I found other work. I don't know what I'd have ended up doing if that hadn't happened. It's not a time in my life I like to think too much about tbh.
Most sex-workers do not have such a choice. They should not be stigmatized - but the work itself IMO should stay taboo, if only to discourage people from taking it up.
It's a difficult issue but unlike many menz I do have some experience on the 'seller' end, still I am sorry for posting on the subject. It will be my only post on 'sex work' on this thread, even if I get flamed for it.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
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redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
This is certainly true but I'm not sure it's a particularly UK thing.
It's also partly why I'm critical of UBI. IMO the older feminist demands for wages for all work were radical and interesting because they originated from workers recognising their exploitation. Most of the movement of UBI is top down, individually driven - hence its support by Neo-liberals. UBI is not articulated as a method to oppose the exploitation of workers, particularly women, but rather a method of keeping the benefits budget under control.
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weltweit
Well-Known Member
And it is taboo, the job center can't sanction you for not taking up a position as a sex worker.
Long may this remain.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
Thank you for such a personal post.
It is a difficult issue and like many have said, it would be good to concentrate on other areas of "women's work". Women are more than sex vending machines.
Thank you again x
weltweit
Well-Known Member
That is probably true, but I was just making the point that sex work is officially deemed to be different from other forms of work.
so what? it's the effects of the sanctions that matter, not the lip service.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
No system will provide value to "women's work" until it is accepted that women are being exploited by society and men in general.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
To whom?
The job centre as arbiter of what is or isn't taboo? WTF.
Yes this is the nub. I think a good first step would be simply to value and PAY caring roles more. This is naive pie in the sky I’m sure, but what I’d like to see is a radical overhaul of what people are paid in society. I’d like any caring or nurturing role (which in my opinion is far FAR more difficult than many other highly paid numerate jobs, and involves far more soft skills like brilliant communication, empathy, compassion, negotiation) to be paid MORE. To include, but not be limited to: HCAs, nurses, care agency staff, nursing home staff, teachers, TAs, Foster carers, adoptive carers, stay at home Mums, relative carers etc.
I would like these people to be paid significantly more. Now I’m shit at economics, so I don’t know if this would work, but I would like to suggest that the increase in their wages- and therefore social position- comes from other industries and I would hazard a guess that this would have to be taxation. Unless someone better at economics has a better idea.
But I do absolutely think that these people- vastly, predominantly women- do literally the most important job in society and that it’s about time that was recognised.
Finally, some of the men on this thread are an absolute embarrassment
Won’t somebody please think about the crab fishermen.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
There are a lot of structural issues standing in the way of this, but yes, it's ludicrous that being a "brand vision consultant" or some such hoofwankery is so highly prized when actually looking after actual people is seen as some of the lowest-valued work available in the sphere of legal employment.
Re: the economics - it's not a strong point for me either, but our current economic voodoo is not the only economics available.
Part of it, I think, is going to come down to our economy being based on the conversion of resources into exchange commodities, and the industries based around extracting profit from that, and the concomitant "making money from money" derivations. Looking after people doesn't fit too well into it. There are clever folk around here that will have far more to say on this.
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