Feminism - where are the threads?

[Manter]

Whilst I recognise the genuine awfulness of your own situation mojo pixy I really think we need stay away away from “most fathers” “most courts” etc . Your own prejudices are on show here. Granted they results from a truly horrible situation, but my experience of “most” is entirely at odds with yours.

We need Tufty (was it she?) to provide stats.


I was raised by my father, who was given custody at a time when it was so unusal that the case made the papers. His male friends who were divorced were very present in their children’s lives, I remember it as quite normal for the dads to be around during holidays, birthday gatherings etc.

However, amongst my own friends, the norm is for the men to be largely absent by choice or neglect or foolishness and the women to be raising the kids largely on their own. I include my men friends here, by the way. I’m often the castigating voice who tells them to step up and make a bloody effort.

The only men I know who are really truly involved with their kids are either solidly middle class with a decent income, a widow, a man who adores his missus who essentially bullied him into being more engaged as their daughter grew up, and a couple of solid working class men who work all the hours and hardly see their kids but when they're there they’re totally present. All the other fathers I know are either physically or emotionally absent, and their partners are entirely fed up with them.

I was about to object to this as the vast majority of dads I know are very very involved- but tbf most are solidly ‘middle class’* (including refugees, of course, as it is usually the middle class refugees who make it to the UK)

Equal distribution of domestic labour- physical and emotional- particularly around childcare- is very much a feminist issue. That includes men being expected to contribute by both society and the courts, and it not being assumed women are supposed to take care of kids and men take care of money. These days, IME, an involved dad gets lionised in a way a similarly involved mum doesn’t..... that should change. Doing the school run and knowing what the kid’s favourite snacks are isn’t ‘amazing’ it’s parenting.

*for a given value of middle class.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I was reading earlier today that feminism is increasingly anti sex work saying that it isn't working.

But, big assumption, assuming that the woman is engaging freely and enjoys the work, why is it anti-feminist?

Shouldn't the woman be allowed to work as she wants? Isn't that the point of feminism, to free the woman to do as she wishes for her her benefit?

I have problems with this.

I was brought up to believe men and women were different but equal. That we are two halves of the same whole. I was brought up in an area where I was the only boy till I was about 14 so perhaps these are the reasons I don't understand.

It's also why I'm interested in this thread.

I think it’s a very problematic and knotty issue for everyone dessiato .

I know a young woman who worked in the sex industry when she was underage (exploited and trafficked) who has become a very aware feminist and advocate for abused girls and women, and she currently fully supports the idea of sex work being a legitimate choice.

But the sex work that most sex workers are engaged with *is* exploitative, there’s no getting around that.

Added to which, many of those who state that they are making an empowered choice to work in the sex industry simultaneously recognise that if they were healthier (in terms of emotional, social, economic etc. health) they’d probably not choose this work. If you’re a single parent or have a mental health disorder that makes it tricky to work in an organisation, and have to decide between a zero hours contract in Tesco where you can’t choose your shift pattern and have to work over half term and Easter, or work instead taking your clothes off for money, the sex work is then the better of a bad set of options.

It’s rarely a case of “Yay! Sex work!”

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

carnations?

Grommet

 

[wayward bob]

so it is

 

[dessiato]

I think it’s a very problematic and knotty issue for everyone dessiato .

I know a young woman who worked in the sex industry when she was underage (exploited and trafficked) who has become a very aware feminist and advocate for abused girls and women, and she currently fully supports the idea of sex work being a legitimate choice.

But the sex work that most sex workers are engaged with *is* exploitative, there’s no getting around that.

Added to which, many of those who state that they are making an empowered choice to work in the sex industry simultaneously recognise that if they were healthier (in terms of emotional, social, economic etc. health) they’d probably not choose this work. If you’re a single parent or have a mental health disorder that makes it tricky to work in an organisation, and have to decide between a zero hours contract in Tesco where you can’t choose your shift pattern and have to work over half term and Easter, or work instead taking your clothes off for money, the sex work is then the better of a bad set of options.

It’s rarely a case of “Yay! Sex work!”

I'm very much against trafficking and underage sex work. I cannot even vaguely justify trafficking or underage sex work at any level.

But an older, maturer, woman making the informed decision to go into sex work should not, in my opinion, be in anyway castigated for doing so. I don't get why feminists would do so. All women should have the freedom to do as they wish with their body. And should not be shamed, persecuted, or criminalised for it.

I don't understand why some feminists seem to think women cannot, should not, embrace their sexuality and sexual being to do with as they wish. In the same way that many men do.

I accept that, if we lived in a more perfect world there'd be other jobs available. But we don't live in that world. But even then why shouldn't a woman be allowed to do sex work if that's what she wants to do?

Or is it simply that there's something I'm failing to grasp?

 

[8ball]

But an older, maturer, woman making the informed decision to go into sex work should not, in my opinion, be in anyway castigated for doing so... all women should have the freedom to do as they wish with their body. And should not be shamed, persecuted, or criminalised for it.

All? Or just older, maturer ones?

 

[dessiato]

All? Or just older, maturer ones?

I was considering age and mentally maturity against young/underage less mentally mature.

I did not mean old. Although there's no reason for them not to choose sex work should they wish

My question is, why is consensual sex work so anti feminist? Why are hard core feminists so against it?

I'm genuinely trying to understand. At the moment I don't.

 

[8ball]

My question is, why is consensual sex work so anti feminist? Why are hard core feminists so against it?

Tentatively (because I wouldn't presume to speak for feminists, and am hence welcoming to corrections), I'm not sure that the premise is entirely valid. Feminism is a broad church.

 

[dessiato]

Tentatively (because I wouldn't presume to speak for feminists, and am open to corrections), I'm not sure that the premise is entirely valid. Feminism is a broad church.

I was reading something this morning saying that consensual sex work is not work, and is anti feminist. And that all sex work should be outright banned, men soliciting sex should be criminalised. They were also saying that women cannot enjoy or choose sex work. Hence my questions.

 

[spanglechick]

I was reading something this morning saying that consensual sex work is not work, and is anti feminist. And that all sex work should be outright banned, men soliciting sex should be criminalised. They were also saying that women cannot enjoy or choose sex work. Hence my questions.

Link?

 

[8ball]

I was reading something this morning saying that consensual sex work is not work, and is anti feminist. And that all sex work should be outright banned, men soliciting sex should be criminalised. They were also saying that women cannot enjoy or choose sex work. Hence my questions.

I wasn't disputing that someone said that, or that a good many feminists may say this.
I was disputing that it is a tenet of general feminist orthodoxy, which seemed to be implied by the quote I was responding to.

 

[dessiato]

Link?

I'll see if I can find it. It was a foreign news site linked to another link where I started.

 

[spanglechick]

I think sex work is a good example of an area where ascribing wholesale to a particular theory of feminism is problematic, because there are meaningful points made on pretty much all sides.

I’ve not seen many feminist writers attacking sex workers though.

For myself, I come from a sex-positive starting point, but am also certain that sex work contributes to rape culture. Which leaves me without a coherent theoretical position, beyond harm minimisation.

 

[dessiato]

I've been reading "The Philosophy of Pornography, contemporary perspectives." And "The Philosophy of Sex, contemporary readings." These have lead me to think about this more and more. As a result I've looked on the Internet and today found this https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAHegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw24ck-e2XNwC7LgQiYMgGJb

I don't want to hijack the thread, so should perhaps let others explain the feminist view while I just sit back, read, and learn

 

[mojo pixy]

Whilst I recognise the genuine awfulness of your own situation mojo pixy I really think we need stay away away from “most fathers” “most courts” etc . Your own prejudices are on show here. Granted they results from a truly horrible situation, but my experience of “most” is entirely at odds with yours.

I began my first post on the thread with speaking personally, but I stand by the assertion that by and large when a man goes absent it's not the kids they want to leave but the partner. Losing the kids is a corollary of losing the partner, a lot of the time. I too would like to see a figure on this but I doubt one exists. I would agree that just about all separated parents I know are doing better than I and my ex so though my experience colours my view it's not all I have.

Derail done. I wanted to be clear about what I was and was not saying as its an emotive issue. As well as being a feminist one.

 

[Gromit]

I know of one or two cases like this. Also know one of a mother being kept from her children. In that case the father is from a very rich and devious family. She gets a very short supervised visit every week or so, and the kids have gradually been poisoned against her.

Not all mums!

 

[Manter]

I think sex work is a good example of an area where ascribing wholesale to a particular theory of feminism is problematic, because there are meaningful points made on pretty much all sides.

I’ve not seen many feminist writers attacking sex workers though.

For myself, I come from a sex-positive starting point, but am also certain that sex work contributes to rape culture. Which leaves me without a coherent theoretical position, beyond harm minimisation.

It’s also interesting to play the ‘what if’- what if academic research was flexible and as well paid as prostitution? What if nursing was as flexible and well paid as porn? Would those people still be making those choices?

I also think it’s interesting how relatively few male sex workers there are given it’s supposed to be a brilliant, empowering thing for women to do

I’m sure there are women who have plenty of choices and are empowered, financially and emotionally stable etc and decide to do sex work, but..... So yeah. Harm reduction and a feeling of discomfort

 

[dessiato]

It’s also interesting to play the ‘what if’- what if academic research was flexible and as well paid as prostitution? What if nursing was as flexible and well paid as porn? Would those people still be making those choices?

I also think it’s interesting how relatively few male sex workers there are given it’s supposed to be a brilliant, empowering thing for women to do

I’m sure there are women who have plenty of choices and are empowered, financially and emotionally stable etc and decide to do sex work, but..... So yeah. Harm reduction and a feeling of discomfort

Academic research and nursing are not available to everyone regardless of pay levels.

There is less demand for male sex workers I imagine. But why shouldn't a man do it if it's what he wants?

 

[Manter]

Academic research and nursing are not available to everyone regardless of pay levels.

There is less demand for male sex workers I imagine. But why shouldn't a man do it if it's what he wants?

That’s the point. If it’s what s/he wants. Is it genuinely what someone wants or is it the least worst option available to them? And what if other well paid and flexible options *were* available? Would that change the choice?

 

[Saul Goodman]

That’s the point. If it’s what s/he wants. Is it genuinely what someone wants or is it the least worst option available to them? And what if other well paid and flexible options *were* available? Would that change the choice?

What percentage of people do you think are in the job they want to be in?

 

[ManchesterBeth]

people not profit, a solidly middle class slogan.

Welcome to the forum, anyway.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

and generally speaking most coloured feminism *in the west* is based on legal theory and not you know, how america's air supremacy smashes us middle easterners to bits every day. The women in my family and communities are solidly anti-american. no amount of jargon is going to change that until your analyses take account of this.

The idea of the quiescent and pliable middle eastern woman is a colonial inheritence that many have inherited, including (and in some cases quite significantly) white women intelligentsia and white feminists (again intelligentsia.)

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Thank you for the heads up regarding a thread on "Terfs". I have suffered a pile on by TRA's elsewhere which was extremely unpleasant. I find the position of Janine Booth similar to my own - see below. If Urban75 is somewhere that seeks total capitulation to the oft quoted mantra, Transwomen are Women, without any consideration of material reality, then Urban75 will not be the place for me. I am open to honest debate not totalitarianism in any form.

Solidarity for both trans rights and women's rights

Lol the Alliance for Workers Liberty (of which Janine is a part of) wrote an article stating that Israel would be in its writes to nuke Iran if it was threatened.

Political positions aren't just things you can pick out at the tip of a hat to make yourself feel good.

 

[kabbes]

It seems inevitable that any thread on feminism will rapidly become dominated by one of the niche subjects men find titillating, like sex work. Meanwhile, the countlessly bigger but unsexy issues raised by Edie just get sidelined.

And lo, we see that it comes to pass again in spite of a valiant early effort to focus the agenda where it truly belongs.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I was reading something this morning saying that consensual sex work is not work, and is anti feminist. And that all sex work should be outright banned, men soliciting sex should be criminalised. They were also saying that women cannot enjoy or choose sex work. Hence my questions.

I disagree with that end point myself but I understand the argument.

There’s a huge range of potential harm, past present and future, in sex work.


Here’s a quick Wiki précis of what Dworkin said about the inequality of the interactions between men and women being extended to sex, and ultimately being expressed as rape.

Intercourse (book) - Wikipedia

Sex work must be understood in this context: as things currently stand, the reasons for which women choose sex work and the ways in which they engage in that work arise from - and are expressed in the context of - the underlying inherent inequality between men and women.

Even the empowered mature thoughtful woman who chooses it actively, willingly and consciously is doing so against a background of oppression, suppression, exploitation and objectification. Of course she is free to make such a choice and shouldn’t be judged for it. But given the background context of the patriarchy, her reasons for choosing to engage in sex work, and her experiences of doing it, are going to be entirely different to those of her male counterpart.

Added to which, there’s a very high chance that she’s actually been assaulted, abused or raped in the past, sexually financially emotionally or etc. just be virtue of her gender.

And of course as a sex worker she’s at higher risk of further abuse and assault.

 

[spanglechick]

It seems inevitable that any thread on feminism will rapidly become dominated by one of the niche subjects men find titillating, like sex work. Meanwhile, the countlessly bigger but unsexy issues raised by Edie just get sidelined.

And lo, we see that it comes to pass again in spite of a valiant early effort to focus the agenda where it truly belongs.

I was engaging on the topic of sex work because I find it intractable and incompatible with absolutist feminist theory. And because of its strong relationship to the issues of male violence and rape culture.

Not because it titilates me.

But, thank goodness you, as a man were able to come along and tell me I’m doing feminism wrong.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

It seems inevitable that any thread on feminism will rapidly become dominated by one of the niche subjects men find titillating, like sex work. Meanwhile, the countlessly bigger but unsexy issues raised by Edie just get sidelined.

And lo, we see that it comes to pass again in spite of a valiant early effort to focus the agenda where it truly belongs.

This is probably why most of the discussions about feminism on here are within threads about sexism.



But yeah. We were talking about parenting and how inequality in income and pay structures means that women end up with the shitty end of the stick.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I was engaging on the topic of sex work because I find it intractable and incompatible with absolutist feminist theory. And because of its strong relationship to the issues of male violence and rape culture.

Not because it titilates me.

But, thank goodness you, as a man were able to come along and tell me I’m doing feminism wrong.

I think he was saying men find it titilating.



Like you, I also find the sex and porn thing really knotty and I’d be interested to see this discussion develop.

And of course sex work is tied absolutely to income and poverty and being time poor and burdened with financial responsibilities.

So of course all these things tie together.

 

[spanglechick]

I think he was saying men find it titilating.



Like you, I also find the sex and porn thing really knotty and I’d be interested to see this discussion develop.

And of course sex work is tied absolutely to income and poverty and being time poor and burdened with financial responsibilities.

So of course all these things tie together.

He was, and by doing so he ignored the women who were interested in discussing it.

 

[Gromit]

I think he was saying men find it titilating.



Like you, I also find the sex and porn thing really knotty and I’d be interested to see this discussion develop.

And of course sex work is tied absolutely to income and poverty and being time poor and burdened with financial responsibilities.

So of course all these things tie together.

I think he was saying it's spin. Tabloids love a sex scandal. It's attention grabbing outrage that deflects us from unsexy topics we should be really be outraged over such as benefit cuts.