Feminism - where are the threads?

[mojo pixy]

For me personally, the biggest feminist issue is fathers' contact with their children / children's contact with their fathers, and the extremely widespread assumption men are rubbish at raising kids and should just go on working and paying a woman to do it.

Note the emphasis on personally. I am aware this is not a huge feminist issue for many feminists (though IMO if more men raised their kids more women could have quality careers so there is that).

 

[JudithB]

Like spanglechick says there isn’t a thread on feminism, but feminism is discussed in a lot of other threads. The place I see most feminism here is the sofa thread for parents, but there’s also been a lot on the Terf thread, and more rarely in other Politics forum threads.

Thank you for the heads up regarding a thread on "Terfs". I have suffered a pile on by TRA's elsewhere which was extremely unpleasant. I find the position of Janine Booth similar to my own - see below. If Urban75 is somewhere that seeks total capitulation to the oft quoted mantra, Transwomen are Women, without any consideration of material reality, then Urban75 will not be the place for me. I am open to honest debate not totalitarianism in any form.

Solidarity for both trans rights and women's rights

Starting one thread would be pretty broad eh. Sexism is part of the background structure of how everything is run, so you could have a ‘feminist’ perspective on almost everything. What’s a ‘feminist issue’ in that context, cos yeh stuff like period poverty is a feminist issue for sure, but so is austerity, so is the criminal justice system, so is sport etc.

One thread would be broad but perhaps they would branch into other areas if women wanted to have those discussions? I am interested in reviewing the second wave as I think feminism has stalled. Those texts that were used in the 60s/70s have been all but erased and the current analysis of patriarchy offers no real challenge to male dominance. I am interested in finding women who feel similar and would like to discuss the the different strands of feminism from the past, including where the second wave failed, such as the porn wars and also the true meaning of intersectionality.

For me personally the biggest feminist issue is unpaid labour. We need to solve the fact that women do the vast amount of unpaid labour- caring for children, the elderly, neighbours, doing the housework- shouldering the lions share of the responsibility and organisation and obviously actually DOING it too.

To me that very basic economic inequality underpins everything. Even, or even especially, domestic abuse. Because economic/financial dependence on men skews the power dynamic so fucking permanently it essentially creates the conditions for male violence (and consequently the murder of women) to flourish.

This needs sorting. Everything else like ‘glass ceilings’ is tangentially related so far as I can see. Yes it’s absolutely important that women at the top are paid the same as men, but it’s far FAR more critical that women at the bottom are paid more (healthcare assistants, carers, foster carers) or paid at ALL (kinship carers, informal care).

These arguments always stick in the throat a bit cos there’s an assumption that it’s only money that gives something value or confers power, but that does seem to be the case. Anyway I’ve got diverged but that’s my 2p.

Edie I completely agree with you and would be interested in discussions that interrogate the role and therefore value of women’s reproductive, domestic and emotional labour.

What could be termed the "Terf" wars have galvanised most areas of feminism currently and I am seeking somewhere to have intelligent discourse and some fun discussing the key-concepts of feminism with others, and to hopefully reflect on what we still find vital and indispensable but has been lost to us in recent years.

 

[JudithB]

For me personally, the biggest feminist issue is fathers' contact with their children / children's contact with their fathers, and the extremely widespread assumption men are rubbish at raising kids and should just go on working and paying a woman to do it.

Note the emphasis on personally. I am aware this is not a huge feminist issue for many feminists (though IMO if more men raised their kids more women could have quality careers so there is that).

Hi mojo pixy, anything that affects women and their ability to have power, agency freedom etc should be important. Women's choices are often constrained by structural factors they have no control over and absent fathers or those who do not pull their weight are contributing factors.

The strong social expectations that women will be the primary carer for children may inhibit further discussion on why society is structured in a way that means women have to make choices that affect their careers, rather than it being limited although not exclusive of men who are absent.

I would like to hear your thoughts.

 

[Edie]

Thank you for the heads up regarding a thread on "Terfs". I have suffered a pile on by TRA's elsewhere which was extremely unpleasant. I find the position of Janine Booth similar to my own - see below. If Urban75 is somewhere that seeks total capitulation to the oft quoted mantra, Transwomen are Women, without any consideration of material reality, then Urban75 will not be the place for me. I am open to honest debate not totalitarianism in any form.

Solidarity for both trans rights and women's rights



One thread would be broad but perhaps they would branch into other areas if women wanted to have those discussions? I am interested in reviewing the second wave as I think feminism has stalled. Those texts that were used in the 60s/70s have been all but erased and the current analysis of patriarchy offers no real challenge to male dominance. I am interested in finding women who feel similar and would like to discuss the the different strands of feminism from the past, including where the second wave failed, such as the porn wars and also the true meaning of intersectionality.



Edie I completely agree with you and would be interested in discussions that interrogate the role and therefore value of women’s reproductive, domestic and emotional labour.

What could be termed the "Terf" wars have galvanised most areas of feminism currently and I am seeking somewhere to have intelligent discourse and some fun discussing the key-concepts of feminism with others, and to hopefully reflect on what we still find vital and indispensable but has been lost to us in recent years.

Ah well welcome along Jude. I’ve got to say though, I really don’t want this (or any other) thread about feminism to be totally or mainly dominated by Terf discussions. For a start there’s a thread for that, and for second it detracts from the discussion about issues such as unpaid labour that have a far more significant impact on women.

 

[JudithB]

Ah well welcome along Jude. I’ve got to say though, I really don’t want this (or any other) thread about feminism to be totally or mainly dominated by Terf discussions. For a start there’s a thread for that, and for second it detracts from the discussion about issues such as unpaid labour that have a far more significant impact on women.

This is music to my ears. Anywhere one goes at present eventually leads to numerous hills people have decided to die on

I have stated my position and that is as far as I am prepared to speak on the matter. I will refer any one who asks to post #32. I do not expect others' positions to be necessary in discourse around the thinking of the possible social transformations that would accompany the true liberation of women.

 

[Edie]

This is music to my ears. Anywhere one goes at present eventually leads to numerous hills people have decided to die on

I have stated my position and that is as far as I am prepared to speak on the matter. I will refer any one who asks to post #32. I do not expect others' positions to be necessary in discourse around the thinking of the possible social transformations that would accompany the true liberation of women.

Good. Cos genuinely, I’d be interested in hearing your views about ‘why the second wave stalled’. If you could- as far as possible- talk about it without too much jargon or assumed historical knowledge that would be even better. (I know I should have read more but I haven’t. For example, is second wave what’s happened since the 1970s?).

Anyway, I’d be interested in discussing your thoughts (and anyone else’s thoughts) on that. So shoot!

 

[weepiper]

For me personally, the biggest feminist issue is fathers' contact with their children / children's contact with their fathers, and the extremely widespread assumption men are rubbish at raising kids and should just go on working and paying a woman to do it.

Note the emphasis on personally. I am aware this is not a huge feminist issue for many feminists (though IMO if more men raised their kids more women could have quality careers so there is that).

Many of the most ardent feminists I know have become so as a result of their experiences of childbearing and consequently splitting with the father and then trying to maintain fair contact between him and the children. If you think it isn't a huge issue for feminists then I think you misunderstand feminists.

 

[JudithB]

Personally, and the personal is the political in feminism , I think the porn wars were the beginning of the end of the second wave. Women were only just being seen as humans with their own agency rather than non-men. We are not mirrors to reflect to men all that they are not nor want to be. Women's sexual liberation was still catching up in terms of control of their biology (the pill was pretty toxic in its first formation), the right to legal abortion and sex positivity.

Dworkin argues that bringing porn into the mainstream is complicit in the subjugation of women. She has a point when one sees how far porn has become mainstream and the constant worries of what young boys are now seeing and being desensitised too.

But denying porn is not seen as sexy - literally

And adherents of sex positivity took positions that liberated women's sexuality rightly so but without addressing the areas of subjugation and oppression porn allows.

Throw in the mix discourse around sexuality, lesbianism, homosexuality which were seen as sex positive, again rightly so, and those on the other side were labelled prudes.

I started to write about intersectional feminism too, which I believe has been misinterpreted and has allowed second-wave feminism to be turned into a caricature and dismissed as interested in only the advancement of middle-class privileged women. It's my opinion that this position is in itself racist and dismisses the works of Crenshaw, Collins and Davis.

The third-wave and queer theory (let's not go there!) provides a male-friendly version of feminism that is easy for anyone to digest and not rock the boat. I am as guilty as the next person of previously having no respect for the past for embracing "ladette" culture and believing that sex-work is work (I have grown out of this phase).

It is the current need to examine material exploitation, and the value of profit-over-people in relation to the climate change threat, that needs us to honestly view them as symptoms of patriarchal power and any change to that power structure requires a robust form of feminism.

 

[JudithB]

Many of the most ardent feminists I know have become so as a result of their experiences of childbearing and consequently splitting with the father and then trying to maintain fair contact between him and the children. If you think it isn't a huge issue for feminists then I think you misunderstand feminists.

I read this as Edie being polite and addressing the point that not all women are mothers.

But if we examine the role of mothers within the context of women's representation in the workplace, maternal feminism and the ethics of care – we need to address the social, political and philosophical importance of revaluing care-work.

 

[Celyn]

Hey I'm Jude and I came across your boards because I'm looking for somewhere that seems to have an active philosophy section.
I can't find a thread about feminism, except one asking about the third wave, which most feminists if worth their salt would disregard these days.
Are there any feminists on here?
If so I look forward to meeting you.

Could you explain further? Will you tell us about this third wave and about the the bit about "which most feminists if worth their salt would disregard these days"?

How does anyone become worth enough salt?

 

[Celyn]

PS I love dressing up too but have not had the chance for a long long time

Why not? In what way have you not had the chance?

 

[JudithB]

Why not? In what way have you not had the chance?

Parenthood means I'm too tired or too busy to go out other than to the local

 

[Celyn]

Feminism isn't seen as healthy? I'm a knackered parent too and an ex raver (more fluff than crust), and no what the offside rule is. But unless it's men only round these parts, feminism is a healthy pursuit

One could say we wont save the planet without the deconstruction of patriarchal capitalism, but it's only my fourth of fifth post, so one wont

Oh, won't one?

How does one feel about the Firth of Forth?

 

[Celyn]

Parenthood means I'm too tired or too busy to go out other than to the local

You do have chances and you make choices.

 

[weepiper]

You do have chances and you make choices.

That's quite insulting.

 

[Celyn]

It is not.

It is strictly true. I do not yet know what to make of this new friend with the tricky name.

 

[dessiato]

It is not.

It is strictly true. I do not yet know what to make of this new friend with the tricky name.

How about waiting to find out, and engaging with the topic?

 

[8ball]

It is not.

Well, by itself its maybe not all that constructive.

 

[Celyn]

How about waiting to find out, and engaging with the topic?

OK, yes.

 

[mojo pixy]

...men who are absent.

A great many fathers are kept from their children and are not intentionally absent. By and large, men don't leave their kids. They leave a partner, then the partner claims the kids so they lose them too. The courts tend to support this kind of split. Either way it's the same issue, and family courts who default to mother is primary carer and father pays support are part of the problem. More fathers should be ordered to take their kids up to half the time, "weekend dad" is an insult to fathers and kids, and is little help to a mother wanting to work.

Many of the most ardent feminists I know have become so as a result of their experiences of childbearing and consequently splitting with the father and then trying to maintain fair contact between him and the children. If you think it isn't a huge issue for feminists then I think you misunderstand feminists.

I think as a father who has been forced into absence by an abusive, controlling ex being enabled by deeply sexist family courts, I have a different view on this from many feminists. It may be a bigger issue than I realised, but in fairness I often hear the more freedom for separated mums angle, less often the kids need their dads angle. Even less often still the separated dads should be raising their kids, let's make that happen angle.

 

[Celyn]

What I said, however, is true. But this is late "middle of the night" and wanting sleep time for me. Possibly back later.

 

[8ball]

Even less often still the separated dads should be raising their kids, let's make that happen angle.

I know of one or two cases like this. Also know one of a mother being kept from her children. In that case the father is from a very rich and devious family. She gets a very short supervised visit every week or so, and the kids have gradually been poisoned against her.

 

[mojo pixy]

The tl;dr version is that the family courts are sexist and corrupt. they claim to act for kids but they act for whoever can bring the most expensive lawyer.

With a side order of adults using kids as weapons against each other

 

[8ball]

The tl;dr version is that the family courts are sexist and corrupt. they claim to act for kids but they act for whoever can bring the most expensive lawyer.

I guess things got stacked in a certain way as an effort to assure kids were looked after when the fathers wandered off, and were protected from violence when they didn't, but the effect of money certainly is pernicious.

I know some women on here have had plenty of problems with the fathers avoiding any responsibility whatsoever, though.

It's going to be hard to get a rounded view on this, with it being such a raw topic.

 

[dessiato]

...

The third-wave and queer theory (let's not go there!) provides a male-friendly version of feminism that is easy for anyone to digest and not rock the boat. I am as guilty as the next person of previously having no respect for the past for embracing "ladette" culture and believing that sex-work is work (I have grown out of this phase).

...

I was reading earlier today that feminism is increasingly anti sex work saying that it isn't working.

But, big assumption, assuming that the woman is engaging freely and enjoys the work, why is it anti-feminist?

Shouldn't the woman be allowed to work as she wants? Isn't that the point of feminism, to free the woman to do as she wishes for her her benefit?

I have problems with this.

I was brought up to believe men and women were different but equal. That we are two halves of the same whole. I was brought up in an area where I was the only boy till I was about 14 so perhaps these are the reasons I don't understand.

It's also why I'm interested in this thread.

 

[8ball]

I was brought up to believe men and women were different but equal.

That often gets applied in a problematic way. Some of the most sexist cultures trot out this line.

 

[dessiato]

That often gets applied in a problematic way. Some of the most sexist cultures trot out this line.

I suppose that my life experience makes me different. I've always lived in a situation where I was led to believe that a woman could do anything she chose to. And so could a man.

I accept that living in the patriarchial society we do that it is usually much more difficult for women than men to do what they want.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

A great many fathers are kept from their children and are not intentionally absent. By and large, men don't leave their kids. They leave a partner, then the partner claims the kids so they lose them too. The courts tend to support this kind of split. Either way it's the same issue, and family courts who default to mother is primary carer and father pays support are part of the problem. More fathers should be ordered to take their kids up to half the time, "weekend dad" is an insult to fathers and kids, and is little help to a mother wanting to work.



I think as a father who has been forced into absence by an abusive, controlling ex being enabled by deeply sexist family courts, I have a different view on this from many feminists. It may be a bigger issue than I realised, but in fairness I often hear the more freedom for separated mums angle, less often the kids need their dads angle. Even less often still the separated dads should be raising their kids, let's make that happen angle.

Whilst I recognise the genuine awfulness of your own situation mojo pixy I really think we need stay away away from “most fathers” “most courts” etc . Your own prejudices are on show here. Granted they results from a truly horrible situation, but my experience of “most” is entirely at odds with yours.

We need Tufty (was it she?) to provide stats.


I was raised by my father, who was given custody at a time when it was so unusal that the case made the papers. His male friends who were divorced were very present in their children’s lives, I remember it as quite normal for the dads to be around during holidays, birthday gatherings etc.

However, amongst my own friends, the norm is for the men to be largely absent by choice or neglect or foolishness and the women to be raising the kids largely on their own. I include my men friends here, by the way. I’m often the castigating voice who tells them to step up and make a bloody effort.

The only men I know who are really truly involved with their kids are either solidly middle class with a decent income, a widow, a man who adores his missus who essentially bullied him into being more engaged as their daughter grew up, and a couple of solid working class men who work all the hours and hardly see their kids but when they're there they’re totally present. All the other fathers I know are either physically or emotionally absent, and their partners are entirely fed up with them.

 

[Manter]

I read this as Edie being polite and addressing the point that not all women are mothers.

But if we examine the role of mothers within the context of women's representation in the workplace, maternal feminism and the ethics of care – we need to address the social, political and philosophical importance of revaluing care-work.

It was @mojopixy weeps was responding to.

 

[8ball]

...all the other fathers I know are either physically or emotionally absent, and their partners are entirely fed up with them.

I only know one case of this where I personally know the father. Where it is the mothers I know, then there are more, and of course I'd only be seeing one side of things.

Like you say, the stats are helpful in terms of removing the skew from our own anecdotal recollections and personal relationships with people.

If we're not talking about where there has been a breakup (I notice you mention a widower), then pretty much all the men I know who have kids are massively involved with their lives and talk about them all the time.