Feminism and violence again women

[friendofdorothy]

I have been wanting to start a serious discussion about violence against women here on Urban - as it is a subject that with which every woman I know is all too familar to a greater or lesser degree. We touched on the subject in some of the other 'Feminism and ... ' threads but never really addressed the issue.

Violence against women and the threat of violence is at the very heart of patriarchy.

I just came across these stats:

Counting Dead Women

a group that tracks femicide in the UK, identified at least 16 murders of women by men in the first three weeks of lockdown.

 

[JimW]

I was thinking along similar lines reading another grim story just yesterday where a man was wanted for a house fire where a woman and two children died and you could suspect the scenario. Relentless and all-pervasive.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Can I ask what is is in particular that we want to discuss?

It's such a big topic I'd appreciate a specific angle to look at.

Unless this is mean as a gather all perspectives kinda thread.

I'm happy to answer anything posed to me but feel lost at what tonput forward.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

.

 

[baldrick]

Violence against women and the threat of violence is at the very heart of patriarchy.

Thanks for starting this thread, it's an important topic. Can I be picky though and say it is male violence against women being discussed.

I don't like this assumption in the phrase that women are victims out of nowhere and I think it's important to name the perpetrators.

And the NAMALT crowd can go somewhere else please.

 

[emanymton]

Thanks for starting this thread, it's an important topic. Can I be picky though and say it is male violence against women being discussed.

I don't like this assumption in the phrase that women are victims out of nowhere and I think it's important to name the perpetrators.

And the NAMALT crowd can go somewhere else please.

NAMALT??
Not all men are like that??

 

[Red Cat]

Can I ask what is is in particular that we want to discuss?

It's such a big topic I'd appreciate a specific angle to look at.

Unless this is mean as a gather all perspectives kinda thread.

I'm happy to answer anything posed to me but feel lost at what tonput forward.

I think perhaps ideas about the causes of violence against women (there will be more than one). Patriarchy seems to me to be a description of how things are, rather than an explanation.

 

[kabbes]

I think perhaps ideas about the causes of violence against women (there will be more than one). Patriarchy seems to me to be a description of how things are, rather than an explanation.

To be honest, if you can be bothered, yours is actually one of the perspectives I would most want to read on that topic. (Academically and professionally, I hasten to add!)

 

[campanula]

Any reason for bringing this up now, friendofdorothy ? Just asking cos it is depressingly ever present and all pervasive. I tend to avoid them, myself (men, that is) apart from the distinctly non-violent ones who I have had a 40 year or so matriarchal influence over (2 sons and sweetheart). Have to say, I am utterly dismayed by the prevalence of porn and insane commodification of our bodies. Because I have largely vanished from public life, I can never really assess how different it is now, from my formative adult years, way back in the distant 70s...when there was, at least in my world, a deeply engaged and committed and active feminist movement which concentrated on practical issues (childcare, wages, working rights, self-defence, housing, health and most of all, a solidarity which does not seem to have much traction today.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Any reason for bringing this up now, friendofdorothy ? Just asking cos it is depressingly ever present and all pervasive.

just that it is depressingly ever present. And global.

Someone I know has been talking about her experience of rape and the daily fear of violence, that robs of her of peace of mind.

I tend to avoid them, myself (men, that is) apart from the distinctly non-violent ones who I have had a 40 year or so matriarchal influence over (2 sons and sweetheart). Have to say, I am utterly dismayed by the prevalence of porn and insane commodification of our bodies.

yes porn / commodification of female bodies / objectifying women certainly leads to us being seen as existing for the purpose of sex and reinforces the idea that women are generally less than human.

Because I have largely vanished from public life, I can never really assess how different it is now, from my formative adult years, way back in the distant 70s...when there was, at least in my world, a deeply engaged and committed and active feminist movement which concentrated on practical issues (childcare, wages, working rights, self-defence, housing, health and most of all, a solidarity which does not seem to have much traction today.

Don't blame you for vanishing from public life. I'm not sure how things are now either. Stats about domestic violence would suggest things haven't changed.

Glad a matriarch like yourself has joined this thread.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Can I ask what is is in particular that we want to discuss?

It's such a big topic I'd appreciate a specific angle to look at.

Unless this is mean as a gather all perspectives kinda thread.

I'm happy to answer anything posed to me but feel lost at what tonput forward.

well its a big subject- eg -
implicit/ explicit threat of violence on the street (the notion was poo pooed by ubanites a few years back)
coersive control / domestic violence / domestic murder
the use of rape and violence against women as a social control.
The use of rape as a weapon of war.

Take any angle you like.

I was interested to hear Patrick Stewart in a pod cast (speaking at a Star Trek conference a few years ago) He talked about his role in REFUGE and his personal experience of watching his father being violent to his mother. He said something to the effect of men have to recognise and talk about the issue.

I would be interested to hear what the men of U75 think - its a big ask - but ideas on both causes and solutions would be welcome.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I think perhaps ideas about the causes of violence against women (there will be more than one).

I'd be interested to hear your ideas on the causes.

Patriarchy seems to me to be a description of how things are, rather than an explanation.

Yes I think the word patriarchy just names the system, it doesnt explain it.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Thanks for starting this thread, it's an important topic. Can I be picky though and say it is male violence against women being discussed.

I don't like this assumption in the phrase that women are victims out of nowhere and I think it's important to name the perpetrators.

Yes male violence against women. Sorry if I wasn't explicit enough.

 

[friendofdorothy]

well its a big subject- eg -
implicit/ explicit threat of violence on the street (the notion was poo pooed by ubanites a few years back)
coersive control / domestic violence / domestic murder
the use of rape and violence against women as a social control.
The use of rape as a weapon of war.

I should have said I see all these as connected - will anyone back me up on that?

 

[Poot]

I should have said I see all these as connected - will anyone back me up on that?

We need to stop saying 'a woman was raped' and start saying 'a man raped a woman,' and find out why. Proper big project. Lots of funding. Go back and find out what caused them to be like this. Collate information. Figure out how we can stop young men from turning out that way. I mean, it won't happen, because how could it? Look how many rapes end in a conviction. It's seriously pathetic. If it was an illness you'd want to find out what was causing it and tackle it, but somehow people are concentrating on the victims rather than the great glaring problem.

Yes they're all linked. And they didn't just arrive out of thin air. Like baldrick said.

 

[kalidarkone]

We need to stop saying 'a woman was raped' and start saying 'a man raped a woman,' and find out why. Proper big project. Lots of funding. Go back and find out what caused them to be like this. Collate information. Figure out how we can stop young men from turning out that way. I mean, it won't happen, because how could it? Look how many rapes end in a conviction. It's seriously pathetic. If it was an illness you'd want to find out what was causing it and tackle it, but somehow people are concentrating on the victims rather than the great glaring problem.

Yes they're all linked. And they didn't just arrive out of thin air. Like baldrick said.

5 live was talking about this today.
A female victim of rape and domestic abuse was saying that she felt the reasons for the low rate of convictions and her experience was that all efforts were concerned with the victims character and history including medical history, school reports etc, rather than researching the alleged perpetrator- WTF!
The message being sent is that it is the woman/ victims fault. If a woman is judged as having a bad character (whatever that means?) then she has no recourse to justice....

This is apparently designed to weed out the cases that will not result in a prosecution and test the nerve of the victim to stay with the process.

This particular victims perpetrator was found guilty of domestic abuse but not rape. After this there was a further incident and the woman did not come forward again because she could not face going through her character being ripped apart again.

So yes the attitude and methods regarding prosecution needs to be turned on its head.

 

[Poot]

5 live was talking about this today.
A female victim of rape and domestic abuse was saying that she felt the reasons for the low rate of convictions and her experience was that all efforts were concerned with the victims character and history including medical history, school reports etc, rather than researching the alleged perpetrator- WTF!
The message being sent is that it is the woman/ victims fault. If a woman is judged as having a bad character (whatever that means?) then she has no recourse to justice....

This is apparently designed to weed out the cases that will not result in a prosecution and test the nerve of the victim to stay with the process.

This particular victims perpetrator was found guilty of domestic abuse but not rape. After this there was a further incident and the woman did not come forward again because she could not face going through her character being ripped apart again.

So yes the attitude and methods regarding prosecution needs to be turned on its head.

Absolute case of tail wagging dog. So frustrating you could scream.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I should have said I see all these as connected - will anyone back me up on that?

Yes I agree they are all connected and the only sensible way to look at it all on this thread is as a systemic issue. (As opposed to there being a large number of individual men who do bad things because of some kind of unexplained moral failing on their part).

I'd also say that the acts you've quite rightly named are at the extreme end of the scale, but to address this we might need to explore the less extreme end of it too.

Perhaps this starts with the idea that men are naturally dominant, physical and not emotional, can't control themselves, should be the main breadwinner, head of the household etc.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I'd be interested in what people think of the "ring ring" campaign against domestic violence in India. I think it's interesting because it puts pressure on men to confront violent men, rather than the usual "don't do this, it's bad" approach? But it's hard to know how successful it's been. It's not like one campaign can fix this.

The videos below all include brief audio-only staged re-enactments of women being hit by men, so people might not want to watch them for that reason.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

I'd be interested to hear your ideas on the causes.

Yes I think the word patriarchy just names the system, it doesnt explain it.

It explains it somewhat, I think, or at least explains to a great extent the perpetuation of the system of patriarchy.

Who has a vested interest in not challenging or changing the system? Men.

The system is rigged against women and girls, because men in traditionally male dominated systems - the police and judiciary and (in)justice system - are the ones responsible for serving justice, and that's like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas.

So it's a bit chicken:egg at this stage. Is it important or necessary to have an explanation as to how or why the system arose?

Although I'm sure part of the explanation can be found in that same legal system that's responsible for delivering justice being the same legal system that was treating women as chattel, saying that it wasn't legally possible for a husband to rape his wife, etc.

And part of the explanation/problem is that there has been no/little incentive for change. I mean, think what came to light because of the #MeToo movement? All that abuse, much of it an 'open secret'.

Will Smith hits another black man and it's an outrage and he gets banned from the Oscars for 10 years. But people knew what Harvey Weinstein, Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, Jeffrey Epstein, etc were getting up to.

The message is that women and girls are less than. We should suffer in silence. And even if we do speak up and speak out, we're unlikely to seek justice, because justice is unlikely to be secured. Because the cops investigating and who should be arresting are statistically more likely to be wife beaters themselves, etc, so why would they investigate or arrest someone for doing the same kinds of things they themselves do behind closed doors at home?

 

[ska invita]

new campaign just launching btw


longer video

 

[Pickman's model]

The message is that women and girls are less than. We should suffer in silence. And even if we do speak up and speak out, we're unlikely to seek justice, because justice is unlikely to be secured. Because the cops investigating and who should be arresting are statistically more likely to be wife beaters themselves, etc, so why would they investigate or arrest someone for doing the same kinds of things they themselves do behind closed doors at home?

there are so few crimes the police stir themselves to investigate now, that it matters not a jot if they're wife beaters or perverts themselves, or if they're pure as the driven snow - rape and sexual assault join offences like theft, mugging and burglary which the cops will at best only go through the motions to investigate

 

[baldrick]

5 live was talking about this today.
A female victim of rape and domestic abuse was saying that she felt the reasons for the low rate of convictions and her experience was that all efforts were concerned with the victims character and history including medical history, school reports etc, rather than researching the alleged perpetrator- WTF!
The message being sent is that it is the woman/ victims fault. If a woman is judged as having a bad character (whatever that means?) then she has no recourse to justice....

This is apparently designed to weed out the cases that will not result in a prosecution and test the nerve of the victim to stay with the process.

This particular victims perpetrator was found guilty of domestic abuse but not rape. After this there was a further incident and the woman did not come forward again because she could not face going through her character being ripped apart again.

So yes the attitude and methods regarding prosecution needs to be turned on its head.

Absolutely. It's awful but it's a story that happens over and over.

A friend of mine was subjected to a horrific attack by her ex bf in a hotel room in london. She came to surrounded by paramedics, the police in the room pressured her repeatedly to answer questions while the perp was in handcuffs in the room.

A few days later when he was released, he went missing and west mids police hammered on her door at 4am looking for him, barged their way in, were really aggressive and unpleasant. She rang me crying so hard she couldn't even get her words out, just gasping for breath.

Unsurprisingly she has no interest now in helping the cops charge him with attempted murder. They had enough at the scene for gbh and she just wants to wash her hands of the whole thing.

 

[dessiato]

Absolutely. It's awful but it's a story that happens over and over.

A friend of mine was subjected to a horrific attack by her ex bf in a hotel room in london. She came to surrounded by paramedics, the police in the room pressured her repeatedly to answer questions while the perp was in handcuffs in the room.

A few days later when he was released, he went missing and west mids police hammered on her door at 4am looking for him, barged their way in, were really aggressive and unpleasant. She rang me crying so hard she couldn't even get her words out, just gasping for breath.

Unsurprisingly she has no interest now in helping the cops charge him with attempted murder. They had enough at the scene for gbh and she just wants to wash her hands of the whole thing.

This echoes the experience of one of my sisters.

She was raped, but didn't report it because she was a recovering heroin addict and, because of her experiences with the police, knew there was little to no chance of the rape being taken seriously.

I suspect that there's a lot of women in this position.

I don't think there's anything likely to change in the foreseeable future. That is not to say that there shouldn't be a massive attempt to change the system. I wish I knew how to do it.

 

[Sue]

I don't think there's anything likely to change in the foreseeable future. That is not to say that there shouldn't be a massive attempt to change the system. I wish I knew how to do it.

Change the system, absolutely. But men* also need to change -- after all, men who commit rape are not 'other', they're people's friends and family and colleagues and partners and generally not some figure waiting to pounce from the shadows.

*Not all men though sometimes it does feel like quite a lot of them.

 

[spanglechick]

Part of my own barriers to this discussion including men, is that - while I know it’s essential to include men for lots of reasons, I also get really antsy at the prospect of blokes saying “it’s simple: any man who hits a woman isn’t a real man.” or whatever. That none of their mates would do it. Etc.

And it comes down to two things. Firstly, that stuff feels diminishing and minimising the problem. It is real men. It is some of your friends, colleagues, family. Men who are violent to women and girls aren’t rare. And then secondly, some of the men saying that easy platitudinous stuff will be men who are or have been violent. It sounds the same whether the man is sincere or not.

And so, while I know violent men are a minority, and I know we need to include men as allies, and I know it’s unreasonable… I end up with this mistrust.

 

[Santino]

Non-violent men also benefit from the general prevalence of violence against women. Women are less likely to challenge you, more likely to be obliging or conciliatory, because the threat of violence is always there.

 

[Dystopiary]

Change the system, absolutely. But men* also need to change -- after all, men who commit rape are not 'other', they're people's friends and family and colleagues and partners and generally not some figure waiting to pounce from the shadows.

*Not all men though sometimes it does feel like quite a lot of them.

Yes, exactly. They get called animals, beasts, monsters etc but it's bullshit really because they are very much human beings. I think this is part of the problem. A lot of men will hear about rapists and "other" them, like they're a very separate entity or a different species, instead of asking why they might do stuff like that.

 

[bluescreen]

Maybe worth airing this again:

Research reveals rapes and assaults admitted to by male UK students

In study of 554 university students, 63 admit to rape, sexual assault and other aggressive forcible acts

www.theguardian.com

and this, earlier, from the US

1 In 3 College Men In Survey Say They Would Rape A Woman If They Could Get Away With It

archive.thinkprogress.org

 

[dessiato]

Part of my own barriers to this discussion including men, is that - while I know it’s essential to include men for lots of reasons, I also get really antsy at the prospect of blokes saying “it’s simple: any man who hits a woman isn’t a real man.” or whatever. That none of their mates would do it. Etc.

And it comes down to two things. Firstly, that stuff feels diminishing and minimising the problem. It is real men. It is some of your friends, colleagues, family. Men who are violent to women and girls aren’t rare. And then secondly, some of the men saying that easy platitudinous stuff will be men who are or have been violent. It sounds the same whether the man is sincere or not.

And so, while I know violent men are a minority, and I know we need to include men as allies, and I know it’s unreasonable… I end up with this mistrust.

I'm not sure if I am appropriate to reply. I fully understand why you'd feel this way. I saw my parents being violent to each other. Mother on too many occasions tried stabbing my father, he would hit her. It is normal, ordinary, people who are DV. But, if men are not included, will it not slow progress down? Men, myself included, and I thank many of the women on urbs for making review my attitudes, need to be included to make sure they do understand their behaviour. Hopefully the men will listen and learn.