EnglishWelsh Defence League, British Campaign agin Muslim Extremist, Causuals United

[invisibleplanet]

to be fair you're the one who was wrong and ip's getting the flak for it for sticking up for you.

Let's move on. The focus has changed, and we must keep up with current developments.

 

[Fedayn]

Thanks. I'm also working on a GreenLeft statement regarding EDL at the mo.

I hope everyone here can see past the inter-left squabbling. To be honest I've found this thread very constructive on the whole. I shouldnt have been as sarcastic to you about the "white middle class" thing. I do get your point, it just gets on my nerves that "WMC" is used to discredit points. The credibility of points and actions are what counts, not the race or class of the people partaking.

I have strong criticism of UAF too, but they are not the main offenders here. The main offenders are the EDL organisers who have us squabbling in a very unproductive manner.

Do you really believe that EDL would have given up without opposition?

I just dont buy it. Opposition strengthens them, lack of opposition would strengthen them. They are in a natural growth phase. They are clearly people who get a buzz from causing aggro. They can and will get that with or without the UAF.

No probs, I don't think it would have fizzled out in the way you're implying. However who remembers the UBA? They had the same 'raison d'etre' a few years ago and had a moer notable black presence amongst their members and yet what happened to them? I wasn't in favour of 'ignoring them' neither. There's a big difference of making sure things were done and behaving the way the UAF did. In all honesty none of us here has 'control' or any ability to control the mosques. That doesn't mean we can't criticise them or questuion what they did. My criticisms were and are of the tactics as have been employed. That's a legitimate view and frankly in the wake of manchester, which even Spion aceepts wasn't brilliant, then surely it's a vital question?

 

[butchersapron]

Choudry's thing won't happen if anything won't. They're not capable of 'spectaculars' and will have the OB down their necks more than the EDL. They're merely capable of playing the same game of racheting up racial tension as the EDL. The EDL strategy sems pretty clear and pretty succesful - large regional cities on weekends. Why would they change it? Esp given that they managed to turn things around since brum. They've got their own momentum now and don't need choudry.

 

[Garcia Lorca]

. Lots of people wouldnt bother their arse going from Leeds to London.

I dont know about that, football casuals dont have a problem with travelling.

I just dont see the gain in the EDL changing their focus to london imo, from the plans they have laid out it they are growing in numbers visiting the cities as planned. Changing this to oppose Choudary/ISLAM4UK would slow their growth down, it could also bring out some further racial hatred that they are trying *not very well* not to be associated with.

edit to add: hopefully we will have a nice wee radio debate in glasgow about it. trying to get a station to take it at the moment, hopefully getting a few different view points represented

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Fed

The UBA point is a good one. The big difference this time is the clever football branding IMO. EDL have made a breakthrough compared to that, but for all I know it could just be a case of a similar bunch of people succeeding 2nd time around as often happens in life.

I didnt see Manchester as all that much of a debacle. I accept that having been there could actually make me less qualified to judge, because distance can make one more objective.

If Manchester is repeated over comming months I think they will struggle to get beyond a certain point. what would make the difference would be to draw mass asian youth in. I think the Imams can keep a lid on that for a while at least (I must admit I thought it wrong for the police to do their mosque thing on Friday, I can see more sense in it now).

There is no way EDL could march through asian areas and get away with it.

In any case, they are provoking. If there is a reaction the press will show it as a "race war" and that will be a victory.
However, that isn't to say that the opposition are as much to blame. It is a narrative the press thirst for. Their agenda is dubious at the least and we shouldn't criticise anti-fascism just because the press twist things. We should criticise the press for that.

 

[butchersapron]

The UBA was football 'branded' from the get-go -if anything it had far more gen types at the centre of it rather than pathetic youtube wannabees.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Maybe you're right, maybe they aren't bothered about opposing Choudary/Al Muhajaroon and other extremist Muslims (even though they said they were and Choudary/Al Muhajaroon were their raison d'etre for forming). Maybe EDL will go ahead with the Leeds demo as planned, and leave Choudary to march through London on his extremist roadshow spectacle. We'd know for sure if that happened, that they used Choudary as a cover for racism and Islamophobia.

 

[butchersapron]

Or that new dynamics can spring up that involve different targets and different opportunities.

 

[Fedayn]

Fed

The UBA point is a good one. The big difference this time is the clever football branding IMO. EDL have made a breakthrough compared to that, but for all I know it could just be a case of a similar bunch of people succeeding 2nd time around as often happens in life.

I didnt see Manchester as all that much of a debacle. I accept that having been there could actually make me less qualified to judge, because distance can make one more objective.

If Manchester is repeated over comming months I think they will struggle to get beyond a certain point. what would make the difference would be to draw mass asian youth in. I think the Imams can keep a lid on that for a while at least (I must admit I thought it wrong for the police to do their mosque thing on Friday, I can see more sense in it now).

There is no way EDL could march through asian areas and get away with it.

In any case, they are provoking. If there is a reaction the press will show it as a "race war" and that will be a victory.
However, that isn't to say that the opposition are as much to blame. It is a narrative the press thirst for. Their agenda is dubious at the least and we shouldn't criticise anti-fascism just because the press twist things. We should criticise the press for that.

UBA was also football oriented, a number of people from a football site I go on were both involved in 'organising' and attending their demos. They were aroung the Finsbury Park mosque iirc. They made it clear from the outset that they had not time for Griffin and Co. A huge banner at the front of their demo 'One nation many faiths' on it. Griffin and co hated them. Even from the outset they 'limited' their potential but they 'faded' as it became a chore. Yesh they were opposed and physically on occasions. I don't however rememebr the same 'furore' over them. I'm not saying their similar or the same, but it's surely not too outlandish to argue that the methods used against the EDL aren't working or helpful?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Buthcers and Fed

Sorry about my ignorance of UBA. Thanks for putting me right.

Anti EDL tactics may not be helpful. I still suspect they are better than none. It is new territory for us and I hope we can be constructive in finding our way through it.

I also hope we can start to build movements to galvanise people on the issues that matter a damn sight more than not liking a certain 2% of the population.

Any EDL success should make us seriously question what stops us mirroring in some way it for our own purposes

 

[where to]

I don't however rememebr the same 'furore' over them.

i suppose the UBA events didn't lead to a Luton type situation and were more disciplined.

or could it be the UAF organisers were just concentrating on other projects back then (around 2005-7) that they felt were more important to them?

 

[Fedayn]

i suppose the UBA events didn't lead to a Luton type situation and were more disciplined.

or could it be the UAF organisers were just concentrating on other projects back then (around 2005-7) that they felt were more important to them?

Well they went to Finsbury park and Regent St mosques which were pretty well heavily policed so yeah the possuibilities that 'presented' a la Luton didn't arise. The StWC was also the SW main project at the time I think.....

 

[where to]

i was thinking of Respect too

 

[Fedayn]

i was thinking of Respect too

Aye good point.

 

[audiotech]

See the video below.

Propaganda piece, with comments adjudicated on by probably the propagandist themselves. Suspect, not much in the way of impartiality in choosing which to publish either?

 

[treelover]

Btw, there's a clip of the EDL demo passing the printwirks in manchester, they were being applauded by locals. How precisely do you propose tyour tactics will cut across this development?

I remember once marching to supprt a asylum seeker who had sown his lips together as a protest, we passed the local markets and the hatred towards us marchers was incredible, anyone who thinks this is a country at ease with the lastest phase of multi-culturalism, etc is deluded

 

[audiotech]

/\/\/\/\ Exactly.

And FYI I've been to hundreds of matches, seen trouble at first hand, from the 70s to recent times.

What's your point exactly?

durruti02 in his 'prolier than though' mode.

 

[durruti02]

getting back on track then...

do you know the reasons behind the call off in leeds?

it hasn't been called off .. they are very excited about it .. they are definately , for now, saying "do not go to Buck House . come to Leeds"

 

[treelover]

Re that video, did the UAF lot shout 'nazi scum' at the counter protester who was holding up a picture of his squaddie son, ffs....

 

[audiotech]

Without trolling,

Its completely on subject to discuss the tactics used at the counter demo and the effectiveness of them. Everyone should always reflect on any actions and the effect of their actions, looking to improve them in the future.

I would assume one of the tactics is for the anti-fascist opposition to this mixed bag of groups to be seen as multi-racial, multi-faith, to avoid being portrayed by far-right propagandists as supporting 'Muslims/Asians/"Paki's" against Christian/indigenous people'? The far-right are getting cocky now, with some anti-communist sentiments being heard on the latest demo.

 

[invisibleplanet]

I'd prefer a group that's opposing another group that chants 'i hate pakis more than you' to be called UAR (United Against Racism) and to drop the inappropriate 'nazi scum' chanting, maybe shout something more anti-racist.
Although that there are fascist scum in that group is undeniable.

Dunno - tricky situation.

 

[durruti02]

I would assume one of the tactics is for the anti-fascist opposition to this mixed bag of groups to be seen as multi-racial, multi-faith, to avoid being portrayed by far-right propagandists as supporting 'Muslims/Asians/"Paki's" against Christian/indigenous people'? The far-right are getting cocky now, with some anti-communist sentiments being heard on the latest demo.

somthing which i do not belive UAF can do in the slightest ..

 

[invisibleplanet]

It's about time someone got these extremist commies UAF off the streets.

They don't demo against Choudary but they protest against patriotic Brits and BNP by calling them fascists, so that must mean they're supporting Islamists and pro-Islamification of Britain.

 

[audiotech]

it hasn't been called off .. they are very excited about it .. they are definately , for now, saying "do not go to Buck House . come to Leeds"

Leeds NF had one of the strongest branches in the 70's. There was also the Wild Boar trial which exposed far-right links with the 'service crew', Leeds United's football firm. The NF had a regular paper sale down at Leeds United's ground every week in the late 70's. They got chased off when some militant anti-fascists (before AFA) ran them off their sale. Mounted police protected them that day, but they did come back.

NB: The BNP have a councillor in Morley on the outskirts of Leeds.

Tory/Lib/Green hold sway in the council.

Not sure if it will be cancelled, or not, but I know a large number of emails have been sent to the Leeds City Council authorities demanding a ban? The last anti-fascist protest in Leeds against the BPP brought out quite a number of anti's.

 

[audiotech]

It's about time someone got these extremist commies UAF off the streets.

They don't demo against Choudary but they protest against patriotic Brits and BNP by calling them fascists, so that must mean they're supporting Islamists and pro-Islamification of Britain.

Yep, that's the line their peddling.

 

[audiotech]

somthing which i do not belive UAF can do in the slightest ..

Manchester protest not an example of this tactic being used?

 

[Silver_Fox]

it hasn't been called off .. they are very excited about it ..

Maybe not as excited as you though.

 

[durruti02]

Maybe not as excited as you though.

yes of course

 

[invisibleplanet]

I turn my back for one minute or so the saying goes. Thursday I had the pleasant task of being the guest speaker of the Cornwall branch of the British National Party. We have plenty of capable people down there who are full up fit and mad for getting cracking and saving the country from the Marxists that ruin er run it, and the hoards who are descending upon it.

Unfortunately on the way back we were stuck on the A30 but it was worth it to see the beautiful scenery of Devon and Cornwall. The BNP in the South West, or deep south as I call it is slowly but surely taking shape into the fighting fit machine that will be ready to fight the next election.

On the YBNP front, the young people are about to enter a training cycle in preparation for the youth parliament elections, and specific ideological training in ethno nationationalism.

While I was away it seems that Harrow was the scene of some street protests. Interestingly it seems that battle lines are being drawn throughout the country. With the EDL,WDL,UDL,LC and a rag tag of other groups on one side, which seem to be civic nationalists.

What is interesting is that allied to the Islamic groups are Unite Against Freedom (UAF), the Socialists and it now seems the Labour party. Remember David Cameron supports the UAF, so it can be argued that by default he also supports the Islamic takeover of Britain.

From Young BNP

 

[invisibleplanet]

Ulster Defense League - where have I heard that name before?