EnglishWelsh Defence League, British Campaign agin Muslim Extremist, Causuals United

[invisibleplanet]

Because you're clearly making out people were/are telling untruths about the UAF. You tried to 'prove' that by referring to them not organising a counter demo meant they weren't there. It's a non-sequitor frankly.

I don't understand what you have to gain - it's obvious that we were talking about different dates - I even realise that later (but of course, an unsourced quote with no clear date took me a while to find when that had been written).
I thought I made it clear I was talking about 5 Sept. (it was there on the link to be discovered).

Do you really care more about fighting me about what the UAF did and didn't organise in Brum, than discussing the real matter in hand?

 

[invisibleplanet]

In other words, ignore what's happening, ignore the bad tactics, ignore the groups who have helped get us here..... That'll work won't it?!
You're like a 10 year old stamping your feet telling us all it's your ball and you're taking it home unless we do as you tell us..... Laughable....

You really don't get it, do you.
If you stop fighting me, it would be alot easier. Since when did I become your enemy?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

"What a shame some stuff was organised against EDL. If only no one had done anything, they could have marched down streets unopposed, intimidated people, attacked people and would surely have given up. That would have been no fun for them."

Who honestly believes this?

Quite a few people might, reading this thread.

EDL would recruit and grow to a certain point with or without opposition. People would show up against them with or without the UAF.

EDL supporters would wet themselves to see the amount of division and sniping around here: Smartarse nuance, namecalling and prolier than thou posturing. The left in this country is a dismal joke, too many are far more obsessed with point scoring against one another than dealing with the issues.

I'm going on an anti-bank demo later. I expect it will be not very well attended (but well supported by by-standers). Lots of people here would queue up to sneer. After all, it's only trying to raise awareness that some people oppose the biggest rip-off in history. Why aint we sitting on a messageboard slagging off the UAF instead?

Where is the left equivalent of any EDL style organising? It's true that we dont have the football "supporter" base to build from as much but the bigger problem is that everyone would be slagging one another off too much.

And the result is that fascists are filling the vacuum created by the crash in establishment credibility and Labours betrayal of their traditional base.

I try not to swear when posting but we really should be fucking ashamed of ourselves.

 

[Spion]

You really don't get it, do you.
If you stop fighting me, it would be alot easier. Since when did I become your enemy?

Don't take it personally. Fedayn has had the handbag swinging and been looking for someone's hair to grab from the get go this morning.

 

[invisibleplanet]

I expect the Leeds (31 October) demo to be called off shortly by the EDL themselves.

 

[Spion]

Lots of people here would queue up to sneer.

There's your answer. Announcing a mass sneer would boost numbers immeasurably

 

[Fedayn]

I don't understand what you have to gain - it's obvious that we were talking about different dates - I even realise that later (but of course, an unsourced quote with no clear date took me a while to find when that had been written).
I thought I made it clear I was talking about 5 Sept. (it was there on the link to be discovered).

Do you really care more about fighting me about what the UAF did and didn't organise in Brum, than discussing the real matter in hand?

No, you care more about trying to paint myself and others as lieing about the UAF having a presence. That you provided 'evidence' that did nothing to rebut our claims seems not to bother you.

Yes, and it has been mentioned that whilst the UAF didn't NOT organise the counter demo on 5th September they were clearly there and had a presence there. But carry on with your piss poor evasions....

 

[Fedayn]

You really don't get it, do you.

From someone who has problems with comprehending reality that's deliciously ironic.

 

[Fedayn]

I'm going on an anti-bank demo later. I expect it will be not very well attended (but well supported by by-standers). Lots of people here would queue up to sneer. After all, it's only trying to raise awareness that some people oppose the biggest rip-off in history. Why aint we sitting on a messageboard slagging off the UAF instead?

Who's sneering? personally I wish you good luck with it I hope it goes well and gets some publicity.

 

[invisibleplanet]

I have not accused you of lying, Fedayn. I don't understand what you have to gain by your continued focus on this. What does it matter who organised a counter-demo. People are free to organise counter-demos in this country.

 

[Spion]

Yes, and it has been mentioned that whilst the UAF didn't NOT organise the counter demo on 5th September they were clearly there and had a presence there.

Do you mean, people who are in the SWP and also the UAF were there that day (Sept 5) but that the UAF did not organise a counter demo?

 

[Fedayn]

I have not accused you of lying, Fedayn. I don't understand what you have to gain by your continued focus on this. What does it matter who organised a counter-demo. People are free to organise counter-demos in this country.

Of course they are, who has said otherwise? Myself and others emntioend the UAF being at the brum 5th Sept event, you claimed they weren't there because they didn't organise the counter demo. Buthcers and myself simply pointed out that not organising a dounter demo doesn't mean they weren't there. You made it clear thaty we were wrong in our claims. To tell something untrue is a lie is it not? That's what you claimed we were doing.... Not too diofficult really....

 

[Fedayn]

Do you mean, people who are in the SWP and also the UAF were there that day (Sept 5) but that the UAF did not organise a counter demo?

The UAF had a presence, including literature. That they didn't organise the counter-demo, something I never claimed they did, does not = not being there.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Do you mean, people who are in the SWP and also the UAF were there that day (Sept 5) but that the UAF did not organise a counter demo?

Man, are you trying to tell me the Marxist reds were opposing EDL? Damn those commies, damn their unpatriotic asses to hell.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Of course they are, who has said otherwise? Myself and others emntioend the UAF being at the brum 5th Sept event, you claimed they weren't there because they didn't organise the counter demo. Buthcers and myself simply pointed out that not organising a dounter demo doesn't mean they weren't there. You made it clear thaty we were wrong in our claims. To tell something untrue is a lie is it not? That's what you claimed we were doing.... Not too diofficult really....

When you write 'the UAF', I (and others) read that as being 'the UAF organisation', not 'UAF members'. You did not write 'UAF members', you wrote 'the UAF', which is why you got the response from me that you did.

Frankly, I don't care if UAF members joined a counter-demo in Brum on 5th Sept that was not organised by the UAF. I don't care if they handed out leaflets about the organisation that they are a member of. It's really very petty to get worked up about UAF members being there. They have a right to counter-demo, just as much as any other individual.

I do not understand what your focus re. EDL is at all. Perhaps you could explain. DO you support EDL?

 

[Fedayn]

When you write 'the UAF', I (and others) read that as being 'the UAF organisation', not 'UAF members'. You did not write 'UAF members', you wrote 'the UAF', which is why you got the response from me that you did.

Frankly, I don't care if UAF members joined a counter-demo in Brum on 5th Sept that was not organised by the UAF. I don't care if they handed out leaflets about the organisation that they are a member of. It's really very petty to get worked up about UAF members being there. I do not understand what your focus re. EDL is at all.

Yet more sophistry.....

 

[Garcia Lorca]

I'll tell you if you promise to stop talking about the SWP, the UAF, and any others who have got drawn in to counter-demo the EDL.

Without trolling,

Its completely on subject to discuss the tactics used at the counter demo and the effectiveness of them. Everyone should always reflect on any actions and the effect of their actions, looking to improve them in the future.

If groups were willing to listen as well as react, it would also help with a cohesive group to oppose the EDL, as NO one listens to each others veiws, this is not going to happen. Or if people are listening then they do not care..

 

[Spion]

Yet more sophistry.....

Sorry, which bit of what IP wrote is untrue exactly?

 

[invisibleplanet]

Garcia, I think that is what was happening. TBH, the EDL are going to get some opposition when they march into town and shout their random abuse at random Muslims.

I think that I'm unhappy right now with the fightyness from Fedayn.

Besides, I believe the EDL will call off their demo in Leeds for 31st October, and I think we should discuss that asap.

 

[butchersapron]

Only one person here going on about the SWP.

 

[Fedayn]

Sorry, which bit of what IP wrote is untrue exactly?

UAF confirm they are not planning a counter demonstration tomorrow (Saturday 5 September): http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/latest-news/press-release.asp?id=1562

IP claimed that because the UAF didn't organise the counter demo it meant that the UAF weren't there. That is simply not true.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Yes! It's all about the UAF!

 

[Garcia Lorca]

Besides, I believe the EDL will call off their demo in Leeds for 31st October, and I think we should discuss that asap.

getting back on track then...

do you know the reasons behind the call off in leeds?

 

[Spion]

IP claimed that because the UAF didn't organise the counter demo it meant that the UAF weren't there. That is simply not true.

UAF members were there on Sept 5. But the UAF as an organisation did not organise a counter demo that day. You've been banging on about Asian youth 'patronisingly' mobilised by outsiders, when in fact the leader of the B'ham Central Mosque suggested they go and vent their feelings. This whole morning's nonsense has been you being dead wrong about the facts and grinding your axe relentlessly.

 

[Fedayn]

UAF members were there on Sept 5. But the UAF as an organisation did not organise a counter demo that day. You've been banging on about Asian youth 'patronisingly' mobilised by outsiders, when in fact the leader of the B'ham Central Mosque suggested they go and vent their feelings. This whole morning's nonsense has been you being dead wrong about the facts and grinding your axe relentlessly.

Dead wrong about what 'facts' exactly?

 

[invisibleplanet]

Garcia,

I believe the EDL will call off the Leeds demo and divert their focus to London because Choudary/ISLAM4UK (front group for Al Muhajaroon) are planning a 'spectacular procession that will take place on 31st October 2009'. These are the raison d'etre that we've been given for EDL, so I believe they won't pass up a chance to be there to oppose them in person, or will they?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Who's sneering? personally I wish you good luck with it I hope it goes well and gets some publicity.

Thanks. I'm also working on a GreenLeft statement regarding EDL at the mo.

I hope everyone here can see past the inter-left squabbling. To be honest I've found this thread very constructive on the whole. I shouldnt have been as sarcastic to you about the "white middle class" thing. I do get your point, it just gets on my nerves that "WMC" is used to discredit points. The credibility of points and actions are what counts, not the race or class of the people partaking.

I have strong criticism of UAF too, but they are not the main offenders here. The main offenders are the EDL organisers who have us squabbling in a very unproductive manner.

Do you really believe that EDL would have given up without opposition?

I just dont buy it. Opposition strengthens them, lack of opposition would strengthen them. They are in a natural growth phase. They are clearly people who get a buzz from causing aggro. They can and will get that with or without the UAF.

 

[revlon]

UAF members were there on Sept 5. But the UAF as an organisation did not organise a counter demo that day. You've been banging on about Asian youth 'patronisingly' mobilised by outsiders, when in fact the leader of the B'ham Central Mosque suggested they go and vent their feelings. This whole morning's nonsense has been you being dead wrong about the facts and grinding your axe relentlessly.

to be fair you're the one who was wrong and ip's getting the flak for it for sticking up for you.

 

[Fedayn]

I believe the EDL will call off the Leeds demo and divert their focus to London because Choudary/ISLAM4UK (front group for Al Muhajaroon) are planning a 'spectacular procession that will take place on 31st October 2009'. These are the raison d'etre that we've been given for EDL, so I believe they won't pass up a chance to be there to oppose them in person, or will they?

Interesting, if they did pass up the chance to confront 'Islamic militants' then they look simply anti-muslim. If they don't have the demo in Leeds will they lose momentum?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Garcia,

I believe the EDL will call off the Leeds demo and divert their focus to London because Choudary/ISLAM4UK (front group for Al Muhajaroon) are planning a 'spectacular procession that will take place on 31st October 2009'. These are the raison d'etre that we've been given for EDL, so I believe they won't pass up a chance to be there to oppose them in person, or will they?

We'll see. They will probably do both. Lots of people wouldnt bother their arse going from Leeds to London. Leeds is to big a potential base for recruitment for them to call off. That's my guess.