EnglishWelsh Defence League, British Campaign agin Muslim Extremist, Causuals United

[Fedayn]

Fedayn

What is your problem with white middle class people?

You seem a little fixated in your last post.

It seems to me like vacuous bigotry, as all race and class prejudice tends to be.

'Vacuous bigotry'? Oh do fuck off. You don't see anything patronising about middle-class white 'revolutionaries' occasionally turning up on estates with a large asian/black population and telling them about the evils of racism as the ANL did almost on cue? The very same estates that they rarely if ever leaflet or visit when it's not about racism? Nah, nothing patrionising about that at all is there...?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

They are very big on this "terrorism" thing aint they? Will they be organising a demo against the CIA which has been the worlds biggest sponsor of terrorism in the last 50 years?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

'Vacuous bigotry'? Oh do fuck off. You don't see anything patronising about middle-class white 'revolutionaries' occasionally turning up on estates with a large asian/black population and telling them about the evils of racism as the ANL did almost on cue? The very same estates that they rarely if ever leaflet or visit when it's not about racism? Nah, nothing patrionising about that at all is there...?

"fuck off" is not an argument. I am as skeptical as anyone else about the strategy of UAF in these regards. The class and race of the people doing it is pretty irrelevant. Plenty of people who do it are neither white nor middle class, but that doesnt suit a certain simplistic narrative.

 

[Spion]

1) No, you made it clear and cheerled the events ion Birmingham. The very events that have unleashed a far bigger EDL response than the UAF is able to cope with. You happily, safely esconced miles away, whooped it up but here you are wriggling away from your previous remarks.

I haven't 'wriggled away' from anything, you nutter. Please quote me if you want to discuss what I'm supposed to have said in the past instead of just making shit up to suit your personal axe grinding

 

[Spion]

Plenty of people who do it are neither white nor middle class, but that doesnt suit a certain simplistic narrative.

Exactly. Look at the videos to see who was involved in Brum

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

"oh, look love - someone put a leaflet through the door about the BNP / EDL"

"hmmm....can you discern the socio-economic or ethnic background of who put it through?"

"no...didn't see them"

"ah...that's a shame, I'm unable to judge the leaflet merely on it's content, I need to know the skin colour and class of the person who put it through"

 

[Fedayn]

"fuck off" is not an argument. I am as skeptical as anyone else about the strategy of UAF in these regards. The class and race of the people doing it is pretty irrelevant. Plenty of people who do it are neither white nor middle class, but that doesnt suit a certain simplistic narrative.

Who said it was an argument? It was a simple retort to someoen clearly unable to see patronising when it is slapping them in the face. Obviously you see nothing patronising in what happened and how it manifested itself good for you. So, middle-class whites, turning up only when it's about race to tell black and asian workers about the evils of racism not patronising? As much as I disagree with Spion he was pretty clear that it's an issue that should be dealt with class wide not just lecturing black and asian workers. You seem oblivious to this.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Who said it was an argument? It was a simple retort to someoen clearly unable to see patronising when it is slapping them in the face.

It certainly can be patronising. I can see that thanks. What I dont see is how race or class is very relevant.

"sorry mate, I'd like to talk about what to do about these fascists, but you're not asian. Can you find someone asian for me to talk to please?"

"Bugger. I'm really worried about the march on Saturday but I can tell from your accent that you might own your own home or work in a white collar job. This makes conversation impossible"

 

[invisibleplanet]

Fed and Spi - afaict, you're both very similar in political make-up and both working-class, so give it a rest and please work together.

 

[Fedayn]

I haven't 'wriggled away' from anything, you nutter. Please quote me if you want to discuss what I'm supposed to have said in the past instead of just making shit up to suit your personal axe grinding

You applauded the UAF whipping up the asian youth in brum. You applauded what took place there. And yet you haven't the honesty to accept that what happened there has caused a much bigger reaction within those 'sympathetic' to the EDL and it's now much bigger than the UAF can control. I bet the UAF were glad that plod had the EDL overhwlemingly corralled on Saturday otherwise they'de be looking at a very different series of events.
As butchers made clar those who have whipped this up, had no ideas or view as to what would happen. Simply playing at Lewisham re-enactment games was what was important. Whipping people up to get onto the streets but having no concern for what will happen is not great politics but a fucking idiotic game that could spiral out of control.

Btw, there's a clip of the EDL demo passing the printwirks in manchester, they were being applauded by locals. How precisely do you propose tyour tactics will cut across this development?

 

[Spion]

So, middle-class whites, turning up only when it's about race to tell black and asian workers about the evils of racism not patronising?

Where did this happen? Tell us exactly what you know about when this happened and where, and who was involved. Because it's sounding like you're just making stuff up to me.

I mean, one of the biggest whinges following the Birmingham events was that the Imam of the Central mosque mobilised people, and he may be middle class but he's hardly unconnected with or 'patronising' anyone.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

The slag off of the "white middle classes" is common on left and right. Daily Mail reactionaries often use it to mean "too liberal for me". Leftist-by-numbers can use it mean "people who aint as pure as me".

It's bollocks. A complete diversion.

 

[Fedayn]

It certainly can be patronising. I can see that thanks. What I dont see is how race or class is very relevant.

"sorry mate, I'd like to talk about what to do about these fascists, but you're not asian. Can you find someone asian for me to talk to please?"

"Bugger. I'm really worried about the march on Saturday but I can tell from your accent that you might own your own home or work in a white collar job. This makes conversation impossible"

<-------------------------------------------------------------The point
Taffboy--------------------------------------------------------------->


Shall I write this with accompanying drawings so you get it?

Simply turning up in estates/schemes with a large asian/black population to leaflet, ONLY, when it's a race issue and never when it's about services, jobs etc etc is fucking patronising yes. Ooooh, the racists are mobilising, I know lets wander down to the 'black/asian' areas to tell them about the evils of race, even though we pretty much ignore their estates when it's not about race. That's not patronising no?
Race and class come into it when it's done the way I said above, oooh look we'll patronise black and asian workers about teh evils of racism.... nah, not patronising at all. The annual lift the lid on racism leaflet.....

 

[Fedayn]

Where did this happen? Tell us exactly what you know about when this happened and where, and who was involved. Because it's sounding like you're just making stuff up to me.

I mean, one of the biggest whinges following the Birmingham events was that the Imam of the Central mosque mobilised people, and he may be middle class but he's hardly unconnected with or 'patronising' anyone.

It's happening up here already with regard to an area called Pollokshields. Sizable asian population, ignored by many when it's not about race and all of a sudden there's talk of doing stalls/paper sales there regarding the SDL proposed demo. Happened regularly in Coventry too, including by groups I was a member of so some self criticism here too.

The issue surely is not that discussing the issue with workers in these areas is bad, but only doing it when it's about race/racism is fucking patronising. garcia larca could give you similar stories I would think.

 

[Spion]

You applauded the UAF whipping up the asian youth in brum. You applauded what took place there. And yet you haven't the honesty to accept that what happened there has caused a much bigger reaction within those 'sympathetic' to the EDL and it's now much bigger than the UAF can control. I bet the UAF were glad that plod had the EDL overhwlemingly corralled on Saturday otherwise they'de be looking at a very different series of events.
As butchers made clar those who have whipped this up, had no ideas or view as to what would happen. Simply playing at Lewisham re-enactment games was what was important. Whipping people up to get onto the streets but having no concern for what will happen is not great politics but a fucking idiotic game that could spiral out of control.

Oh, give over. The UAF were not even officially involved in Brum. There was involvement also by MAB, Respect (AFAIK) and the leader of the biggest mosque in the city.

And I'd like proof of what happened in Brum was the cause of anything. The EDL was always likely to grow anyway whatever the left or muslim/asian orgs did.

Btw, there's a clip of the EDL demo passing the printwirks in manchester, they were being applauded by locals. How precisely do you propose tyour tactics will cut across this development?

What do you mean, 'cut across'?

If I was standing next to these applauding locals I'd say the EDL were a load of deluded troublemaking racist twats. Same as I'd say if I were anywhere

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

<-------------------------------------------------------------The point
Taffboy--------------------------------------------------------------->


Shall I write this with accompanying drawings so you get it?

"Simply turning up in estates/schemes with a large asian/black population to leaflet, ONLY, when it's a race issue and never when it's about services, jobs etc etc is fucking patronising yes. "

What matters most is the quality of the leaflet, not the person who sticks it through.

The reason why someone in area X doesnt get involved in public service / housing / environment etc. issues of area Y is probably because they don't live very near it.

They may well be involved in community work in their own area.

"sorry I cant go leafletting in Rusholme tonight, I live in Salford and it wouldnt be right. Only people from Rusholme who have done community work there should leaflet there. Anything else is just too patronising. And what's more my pigmentation is of a pink hue. Can it get any worse? Leave me out"

but if this "patronising white middle class" thing still bothers you, perhaps you can produce a handy self assessment form for any potential activist to fill in before they bother to do anything.

Me and my mates organised a solidarity social recently for Vestas. We raised a few hundred quid for sure, but we're not from the Isle of Wight. Such a form could have spared us the bother and the community wouldnt have been polluted with the resultant awareness raising.

I'd like to do more for the indiginous people affected by tar sands development and deforrestation.

I am white, so such a form could leave me more time to focus on local white people.

 

[Spion]

Simply turning up in estates/schemes with a large asian/black population to leaflet, ONLY, when it's a race issue and never when it's about services, jobs etc etc is fucking patronising yes. Ooooh, the racists are mobilising, I know lets wander down to the 'black/asian' areas to tell them about the evils of race, even though we pretty much ignore their estates when it's not about race. That's not patronising no?
Race and class come into it when it's done the way I said above, oooh look we'll patronise black and asian workers about teh evils of racism.... nah, not patronising at all. The annual lift the lid on racism leaflet.....

Well, yeah, you've got a point. To an extent. But that's also the way of things. Issues arise and socialists would be fools not to try and draw people to immediate events but also to wider socialist answers. I mean, when the power station strikes took place your union passed resolutions of support. Someone arguing your logic now would call you patronising, you only swoooped down on them when they were on strike, where were you before that, you come in with your letter of support then you disappear etc etc. It's bollocks of course because you generally only start to make contacts when particular events stir things up

 

[Fedayn]

Oh, give over. The UAF were not even officially involved in Brum. There was involvement also by MAB, Respect (AFAIK) and the leader of the biggest mosque in the city.

And I'd like proof of what happened in Brum was the cause of anything. The EDL was always likely to grow anyway whatever the left or muslim/asian orgs did.

What do you mean, 'cut across'?

If I was standing next to these applauding locals I'd say the EDL were a load of deluded troublemaking racist twats. Same as I'd say if I were anywhere

Read what they said about brum, they were afamant it wasn't going to happen again so they wanted the numbers to ensure it didn't. The UAF were more than involved, they declared it a victory, they had the [pressers saying it was a victory. We'll never know if it was gonna grow to the extent it did in manchester. How dio you explain such an exponential rise in numbers? Did what happened in brum have no input to such a massive rise? How do you explain such a huge rise?

'Cut across', ie discussing with those applauding the demo? Just saying their racist when to those watching there's placards saying black and white unite as there was on Saturday being waved by EDL marchers? Do you trecjkon that will wash with people or are different tactics needed?

 

[Fedayn]

<-------------------------------------------------------------The point
Taffboy--------------------------------------------------------------->


Shall I write this with accompanying drawings so you get it?

"Simply turning up in estates/schemes with a large asian/black population to leaflet, ONLY, when it's a race issue and never when it's about services, jobs etc etc is fucking patronising yes. "

What matters most is the quality of the leaflet, not the person who sticks it through.

The reason why someone in area X doesnt get involved in public service / housing / environment etc. issues of area Y is probably because they don't live very near it.

They may well be involved in community work in their own area.

"sorry I cant go leafletting in Rusholme tonight, I live in Salford and it wouldnt be right. Only people from Rusholme who have done community work there should leaflet there. Anything else is just too patronising. And what's more my pigmentation is of a pink hue. Can it get any worse? Leave me out"

but if this "patronising white middle class" thing still bothers you, perhaps you can produce a handy self assessment form for any potential activist to fill in before they bother to do anything.

Me and my mates organised a solidarity social recently for Vestas. We raised a few hundred quid for sure, but we're not from the Isle of Wight. Such a form could have spared us the bother and the community wouldnt have been polluted with the resultant awareness raising.

I'd like to do more for the indiginous people affected by tar sands development and deforrestation.

I am white, so such a form could leave me more time to focus on local white people.

Fuck me you're an idiot.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Fed:

How dio you explain such an exponential rise in numbers?

No one can tell for sure. I expect counter aggro can help a bit. But to repeat from earlier: Fucked if we do, fucked if we dont.

What grows them more IMo is a large potential base among football "supporters".

After an EDL event an attendee will get his mates to tag along "it's great" they'll say. And I'm sure there is an adrenalin buzz to parading through town chanting and stuff that they dont get out of a regular footie game. I daresay they feel relatively empowered by the experience.

This would be the case with or without opposition.

That's how I explain most of the growth.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Fuck me you're an idiot.

I'm not the one who thinks ones credibility in activism is affected by race, class or address.

 

[Fedayn]

Well, yeah, you've got a point. To an extent. But that's also the way of things. Issues arise and socialists would be fools not to try and draw people to immediate events but also to wider socialist answers. I mean, when the power station strikes took place your union passed resolutions of support. Someone arguing your logic now would call you patronising, you only swoooped down on them when they were on strike, where were you before that, you come in with your letter of support then you disappear etc etc. It's bollocks of course because you generally only start to make contacts when particular events stir things up

Thankl fuck for that, I hoped you'd at least get what I was driving at. There's no comparison between the vestas strike/lyndsey and what we're discussing. you can't suppotr a atrike of there's not one taking place. You can't offer support to workers if there's no issue to immediately offer support on. Many yuears ago regualr paper sales took place outside factories precisely to stop the patronising references. Theyu don't happen so much these days so yeah to an extent there is a certain 'swooping' in on them. There is i'm sure you'll agree a bit of a difference, with what we're discussing there though.
The areas i'm referring to are pretty much ignored when it's not about race but then all of a sudden it's get down there and tell them about racism..... As I said, the old MT were guilty of it aswell. The areas we're referring to should not be wheeled out when it's about race, they'er working class areas that have the same wants and needs as other areas.

 

[Spion]

Read what they said about brum

What who said?

How dio you explain such an exponential rise in numbers? Did what happened in brum have no input to such a massive rise? How do you explain such a huge rise?

Football season? (the last Brum one was on the day of a pre-season friendly, IIRC)

'Cut across', ie discussing with those applauding the demo? Just saying their racist when to those watching there's placards saying black and white unite as there was on Saturday being waved by EDL marchers? Do you trecjkon that will wash with people or are different tactics needed?

Well, it's the usual gamut or responses isn't it? From pointing out the lies and hypocrisy of the racists through to advocating a class response. I'm not going through all that at lenght. I think you know what I mean

 

[invisibleplanet]

You applauded the UAF whipping up the asian youth in brum. You applauded what took place there. And yet you haven't the honesty to accept that what happened there has caused a much bigger reaction within those 'sympathetic' to the EDL and it's now much bigger than the UAF can control. I bet the UAF were glad that plod had the EDL overhwlemingly corralled on Saturday otherwise they'de be looking at a very different series of events.

What you're saying doesn't make sense, since I know Spion is aware of the following, and was aware even before the Brum EDL demo.

. UAF weren't in Brum - made a public point out of not being there - due to criticism that their presence made things worse (I think).
UAF confirm they are not planning a counter demonstration tomorrow (Saturday 5 September): http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/latest-news/press-release.asp?id=1562

. Police advised council to cancel long-planned multicultural event which was supposed to be held on the day the EDL came to Brum.

. Brum Central Mosque leader openly encouraged asian youth to counter EDL. (The only mosque leader to have done so, everyone other mosque leader discouraged/discourages this type of response).

AFAICR, it was mentioned after the event that SWP did have a presence there.

 

[Spion]

The areas i'm referring to are pretty much ignored when it's not about race but then all of a sudden it's get down there and tell them about racism..... As I said, the old MT were guilty of it aswell. The areas we're referring to should not be wheeled out when it's about race, they'er working class areas that have the same wants and needs as other areas.

Well, yeah, sure. NB tho, in painting your 'swoop and partonise' picutre you are completely ignoring the role of asian/muslim organisations for the brum events

 

[revlon]

Oh, give over. The UAF were not even officially involved in Brum.

are you quite sure about this?

Unite Against Fascism held a successful demonstration in Birmingham on Saturday against the "English Defence League", a group of racist football hooligans with links to the fascist British National Party that tried to hold an anti-Muslim rally in the city.

 

[Fedayn]

What who said?

Football season? (the last Brum one was on the day of a pre-season friendly, IIRC)

Well, it's the usual gamut or responses isn't it? From pointing out the lies and hypocrisy of the racists through to advocating a class response. I'm not going through all that at lenght. I think you know what I mean

What the EDL said after Brum, ie look what happened, we need more numbers.

Really? There's a football website I go on that the Casuals United fella also goes on. he was explicit, look what ahppened in brum, we, ie EDL, need bigger numbers. Absolutely clear that what happened in brum was a major catalyst for the numebrs in Manchester.

I'd agree yeah simply calling them nazis, when they'wer holding palcards calling for black and whites unite doesn't make much sense does it? It also means going into those working class areas and discussing that, a tactic utterly ignored by UAF/SWP and their pals.

 

[Fedayn]

UAF weren't in Brum - made a public point out of not being there - due to criticism that their presence made things worse (I think).
UAF confirm they are not planning a counter demonstration tomorrow (Saturday 5 September): http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/latest-news/press-release.asp?id=1562

Police advised council to cancel long-planned multicultural event which was supposed to be held on the day the EDL came to Brum.

Brum Central Mosque leader openly encouraged asian youth to counter EDL.

AFAICR, it was mentioned after the event that SWP did have a presence there.

UAF were there, as revlon has shown in his post above they made a big claim about their counter-demo. They also were on TV Bennett and Smith being their mouthpieces about the days events.

 

[Fedayn]

NB tho, in painting your 'swoop and partonise' picutre you are completely ignoring the role of asian/muslim organisations for the brum events

I think there's a rather notable difference here. I understand entirely why they did what they did. Doesn't mean the likes of Salma Yaqoob and the fella from Brum mosque were right in claiming they wwere BNP though.

 

[invisibleplanet]

are you quite sure about this?

>

The below press release has been issued today by Unite Against Fascism:

West Midlands Unite Against Fascism today condemned the leadership of Birmingham City Council for refusing to ban a racist demo planned for Saturday, at the same time as vetoing a celebration of Birmingham's multi-cultural diversity.
The rally is being organised by the racist English Defence League whose two previous visits to Birmingham ended in widespread violence and intimidation. Their conduct has already led to a ban being imposed on their rallies in Luton and many expected Birmingham City Council would call for the same action here. Instead, ignoring the thousands of people who had asked for the City to keep the peace and ban the racists, on Thursday it was announced that the only restriction placed on the English Defence League would be not being allowed to chant their Anti Muslim slogans in the Bull Ring.

Mr Mike Wongsam, chair of West Midlands UAF said ?In Birmingham, no attempt to apply for a banning order has been made against this latest EDL demonstration. This stands in stark contrast to the situation in Luton, where rightwing groups have been banned from holding marches for three months in an attempt to prevent a repeat of the violence caused by similar demonstrations across the country. We know that the people of Birmingham stand united in celebration of the city's multiculturalism, it's a shame the Council don't?

Mr Wongsam confirmed that despite repeated statements by West Midlands Police, the UAF were not planning a counter demonstration this Saturday. He explained that UAF had been urging people to support the Birmingham United initiative of Stirrer editor Adrian Goldberg. This multicultural celebration of Birmingham had been cancelled at short notice, because of a Council ban on using its premises. "In Birmingham, we now have the deplorable situation where a rally aimed at promoting harmony and unity among our communities is prevented from taking place, whereas the EDL are allowed to conduct their demonstration of hate and division despite their previous events invariably leading to violent disorder."
http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/latest-news/press-release.asp?id=1562