Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

[Bernie Gunther]

Is the answer then for the US to ignore it?

You mention that the US has pulled off similar meddling in the affairs of other countries. Should other countries ignore US meddling?

Well, I think first the US should ask itself why is it OK when Rupert Murdoch does it but not ok when Putin does (assuming he did)

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Should other countries ignore US meddling into their affairs?

 

[butchersapron]

Who?

 

[J Ed]

Should other countries ignore US meddling into their affairs?

This is such a stupid question, sorry but it is

 

[J Ed]

Who?

Indeed. Personally I think Cáceres' people should get the chance to Lock Her Up but you know..

 

[CRI]

Should other countries ignore US meddling into their affairs?

Don't think you'll get an answer. Too many people relishing the "just desserts" angle without thinking of the wider impact on the world.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Don't think you'll get an answer. Too many people relishing the "just desserts" angle without thinking of the wider impact on the world.

It's pretty standard U75 politics forum operating procedure: an uncomfortable question is met with a joke-style or putdown-style answer, in an attempt to provoke a bunfight, during which the original question or topic of substance is conveniently set aside.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Here's the issue, as I see it with 'preventing Russian hacker interference in US election'

What's being alleged I take to fall into three stages.

1) Hacked into some political organisations and personal systems, stole some potentially embarrassing shit and exfiltrated it.

What can you do about this?

Essentially nothing. If Russian spooks (or NSA, GCHQ et al) want to do this, not even other techno-spooks can reliably stop them, let alone civilians.

2) Packaged the potentially embarrassing shit up in such a way as to feed specific political narratives and put it out there by various means.

What can you do about this?

Only thing I can think of is some sort of Great Firewall of China sort of deal on top of what they're already doing to Chelsea Manning et al.

3) Generated media hype around the propaganda material and got loads of high-profile links to it.

What can you do about this?

Gin up some sort of legal mandate for making Google et al impose political filters on how their search algorithms behave and/or arrest anyone who links to whatever your political persuasion views as 'fake news' sites.

In other words, I don't think 'preventing it' sounds practicable without descending further into totalitarianism. Would you put such capabilities in the hands of whoever happens to get elected?

A more substantive question right here. What would 'preventing Russian interference' look like?

 

[J Ed]

Don't think you'll get an answer. Too many people relishing the "just desserts" angle without thinking of the wider impact on the world.

Self awareness

 

[DotCommunist]

well, other than vocally being resistant to what happened, how are countries in latin america or honduras or wherever supposed to do? Really? America has the capacity to respond. In ways implied by BG up there if I read him right.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

A more substantive question right here. What would 'preventing Russian interference' look like?

Computer experts can better answer the question.

The policy question that people who aren't security experts can opine on, is whether or not countries whose internal affairs have been meddled-with by foreign countries, should ignore the meddling.

What you seem to be suggesting, is that if solutions are too hard, then nothing at all should be done.

 

[snadge]

Computer experts can better answer the question.

The policy question that people who aren't security experts can opine on, is whether or not countries whose internal affairs have been meddled-with by foreign countries, should ignore the meddling.

What you seem to be suggesting, is that if solutions are too hard, then nothing at all should be done.

Blaming external influences for internal power struggles is as old as the hills.

Trouble is, this power struggle is becoming dangerous.

 

[agricola]

Computer experts can better answer the question.

The policy question that people who aren't security experts can opine on, is whether or not countries whose internal affairs have been meddled-with by foreign countries, should ignore the meddling.

What you seem to be suggesting, is that if solutions are too hard, then nothing at all should be done.

I think it is a bit much to call it "meddling"; if one looks at the allegation of interference that they are most likely to be guilty of (the hacks on Podesta and the DNC) it would perhaps be more correct to describe it as something of a public service, in that they exposed what they were actually saying and doing.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

well, other than vocally being resistant to what happened, how are countries in latin america or honduras or wherever supposed to do? Really? America has the capacity to respond. In ways implied by BG up there if I read him right.

I was trying to think through how the US might try to "prevent" what's being alleged, but really I can't see any of that stuff working.

At least not if the US wants to keep its 1st amendment and the internet as we know it.

You can't stop the hacking bit, so the only option is to try to stop the bit where they use the material obtained to shape public opinion.

 

[snadge]

I was trying to think through how the US might try, but really I can't see any of that stuff working.

At least not if the US wants to keep its 1st amendment.

US elite does not give a shite about the 1st amendment.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think it is a bit much to call it "meddling"; if one looks at the allegation of interference that they are most likely to be guilty of (the hacks on Podesta and the DNC) it would perhaps be more correct to describe it as something of a public service, in that they exposed what they were actually saying and doing.

Indeed. How times have changed when spies steal secrets from others in order to reveal them to their own people. Dastardly. Kind of elegant.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I was trying to think through how the US might try, but really I can't see any of that stuff working.

At least not if the US wants to keep its 1st amendment and the internet as we know it.

You can't stop the hacking bit, so the only option is to stop the bit where they use the material obtained to shape public opinion.

Rather than focusing on setting up defensive barriers, etc, a country which believes itself to having been subject to this sort of activity, could attempt diplomatic solutions.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

US elite does not give a shite about the 1st amendment.

I'm sure they don't but actually repealing it might be tricky

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I think it is a bit much to call it "meddling"; if one looks at the allegation of interference that they are most likely to be guilty of (the hacks on Podesta and the DNC) it would perhaps be more correct to describe it as something of a public service, in that they exposed what they were actually saying and doing.

That's an interesting concept of public service.

Given what we now know about the NSA's gathering of private communications throughout the world, it puts the US government in the position of being able to carry out widespread public service by releasing the private communications of public figures, individuals, politicians etc, in numerous countries, at times when critical events are happening involving such people.

And since it will be what these people actually said, it can't be construed as 'meddling'.

 

[agricola]

That's an interesting concept of public service.

Given what we now know about the NSA's gathering of private communications throughout the world, it puts the US government in the position of being able to carry out widespread public service by releasing the private communications of public figures, individuals, politicians etc, in numerous countries, at times when critical events are happening involving such people.

And since it will be what these people actually said, it can't be construed as 'meddling'.

Perhaps - though I think even a casual look at the history of US involvement in the electoral processes of other countries would strongly suggest that its very unlikely that such public service will take the form of "what these people actually said".

 

[snadge]

That's an interesting concept of public service.

Given what we now know about the NSA's gathering of private communications throughout the world, it puts the US government in the position of being able to carry out widespread public service by releasing the private communications of public figures, individuals, politicians etc, in numerous countries, at times when critical events are happening involving such people.

And since it will be what these people actually said, it can't be construed as 'meddling'.

They don't though, do they?


This shambles is internal, Putin is laughing at it, live with it.

The rest of the world is laughing also.

I wanted Trump to win, he is a fucking useless orange cunt, he could of made more money of his inheritance by leaving it it in the fucking bank and claiming interest on it instead of being a gold plated idiot, now he is the fucking retarded leader of a superpower.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Perhaps - though I think even a casual look at the history of US involvement in the electoral processes of other countries would strongly suggest that its very unlikely that such public service will take the form of "what these people actually said".

That's where the NSA comes in. As we've seen from the Podesta emails, it's a whole new world.

The NSA has 'what people actually said', available for widespread public service.

 

[J Ed]

That's where the NSA comes in. As we've seen from the Podesta emails, it's a whole new world.

The NSA has 'what people actually said', available for widespread public service.

Now that's all at the disposal of Trump, thanks liberalism.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I wonder if the US had anything to do with this bit of public service?

A network of secret offshore deals and vast loans worth $2bn has laid a trail to Russia’s president, Vladimir Putin.

An unprecedented leak of documents shows how this money has made members of Putin’s close circle fabulously wealthy.

Though the president’s name does not appear in any of the records, the data reveals a pattern – his friends have earned millions from deals that seemingly could not have been secured without his patronage.

The documents suggest Putin’s family has benefited from this money – his friends’ fortunes appear his to spend.

The files are part of an unprecedented leak of millions of papers from the database of Mossack Fonseca, the world’s fourth biggest offshore law firm. They show how the rich and powerful are able to exploit secret offshore tax regimes in myriad ways.

Revealed: the $2bn offshore trail that leads to Vladimir Putin

 

[snadge]

I wonder if the US had anything to do with this bit of public service?



Revealed: the $2bn offshore trail that leads to Vladimir Putin

So fuck, what does that matter, you have fucking children dying in the US due to malnutrition, how does that equate to Putin being a bent bastard.

 

[camouflage]

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/12/14/questions-for-the-electors-on-russian-hacking/

Seven very good questions, we won't get any answers.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think that as both China and Russia are fully interested capitalist parties as well- the whole Okinawa thing justified as to do with securing international trade amounts to bringing a shot-gun to a business meeting, not really something that's in the spirit of whatever's actually on the table if you're talking in terms of securing trade and commerce. If it was a business meeting attended by a mafia enforcer on the other hand.... ok maybe then it makes more sense.

It's to do with trade blocs and access to R & D and the development of finished products. Capitalism isn't a unitary endeavour, and the versions deployed in China and Russia, differing in their priorities from the versions deployed in Western Europe and North America, illustrate this. Capitalisms are competitive, not least because it drives innovation and therefore the accumulation of surplus value.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/12/14/questions-for-the-electors-on-russian-hacking/

Seven very good questions, we won't get any answers.

It doesn't sound to me like they've got any forensics showing that either of the two probably-Russian hacker groups who were in the DNC network put the leaked material in the public domain.

Here's an interview with the character who runs the security firm the DNC hired to investigate after becoming suspicious. He's just claimed that after being brought in, his team had identified characteristic tools and methods used by APT28 and APT29 (they've produced plausible looking evidence to back that claim up and other security companies have found ongoing activity by the same groups right across the US political sphere)

He also claims that he had the DNC networks under surveillance from that point and could watch the hackers every move, then he says the following:

What surprised you about how these Russian-connected groups went about their work? I mean were you surprised at the boldness of this move?

ALPEROVITCH: I really wasn't initially because at the time we were brought in, I assumed it was a traditional espionage operations. Political parties get targeted all the time. In fact during the 2008 and 2012 campaigns, we had other nation states like China targeting campaigns. But they were not releasing that information publicly. They were taking policy documents, information about people involved in the campaign and providing that as information to the Chinese leadership.

I assume that the Russians were interested in the same thing. And it really was surprising to me when we started to see all these leaks coming out from the DNC and other organizations that have been targeted. And it became very, very clear that the goal here was not just espionage but really to influence this election.

Cybersecurity Firm Confirms Russian Hackers Breached The DNC

Now I dunno about you, but that sounds to me like an inference based on the use that was made of the material by a wide range of actors, once it had come into the public domain.

 

[two sheds]

Capitalisms are competitive, not least because it drives innovation and therefore the accumulation of surplus value.

Competition's claimed to drive innovation but cooperation's a lot better. Once you've had the cooperation on research for example it's turned over to competition for the pure money making for companies.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Competition's claimed to drive innovation but cooperation's a lot better. Once you've had the cooperation on research for example it's turned over to competition for the pure money making for companies.

The single greatest driver of innovation is the competition caused by medium and large scale war and conflict. Competition to produce better tech and better science. As far as cooperation in research goes, it works, but how well? In academe perhaps, but it doesn't much happen in proprietary R & D depts.