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Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

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Innovation in weapons you mean?

No, innovation across the scientific board.


Again yes that's the claim but cooperation's much better. Research results are universally shared by people publishing their research papers.

After the research and review stages are done, after benefits are derived.

Also Chomsky saying that the state normally finances new technologies (cooperation) before opening the profits up to be taken by private companies (competition).

Competition is hugely wasteful by repeating work that's being done elsewhere. It's also stressful for everyone competing. Companies cooperating to form standards cuts down waste for example.

Companies running their own standards also works well, especially within the tech market.

Encouraging competition within companies themselves has been promoted as being efficient but it's a sort of thatcherite idea (not that you're saying that).

I'm with Deming on this one. And surely it would be the socialist view?

I'm not a socialist. :)
 
is anyone actually going to believe a mild mannered social democrat would be writing a revo-commie rant?

Yes. It's actually pretty mild compared to some of the shite I've seen passed around as truth. We live in a post-truth world. It doesn't matter if its true or not, things get used for as much millage as they're worth.
 
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No, innovation across the scientific board.

Disagree - scientific innovation is based on research that other people have done and published. Like I said, both software and hardware of computers which I'd have thought have led to most of recent scientific innovation have been fundamentally based on standards and co-operative. Yes the companies are competing but they needn't have been, and competition hinders scientific innovation rather than helps it.

After the research and review stages are done, after benefits are derived.

I'm not involved in research but I doubt that, too. Research is normally now done in teams that co-operate on the research rather than each trying to compete against the rest of the team. The researchers I've seen are happy to talk about their research with the scientific community and share ideas. It's only in companies who are secretive or where someone has an idea they want the glory for that they don't. Again, competition damages research not helps it.

It's all based on education which is again a collaboration. You can introduce competition there too, but again I doubt it has any benefit. Any greater desire to succeed by beating other people I'd have thought would be constrictive and raise stress levels - people don't perform well under stress.

Peer review is an example of collaboration, too.

Companies running their own standards also works well, especially within the tech market.

Nope. Proprietary standards are only useful to the company and only succeed if other companies co-operate by building to that standard. They are hated by users - what use is a communications board that doesn't communicate with other manufacturers' equipment? It ties people into that one company which can force up costs because they're hooked into that proprietary standard.

I'm not a socialist. :)

Do anarchists not prefer co-operation to competition? I'm surprised and a bit wary of anarchism if that's not so. It makes no sense for small communities to compete against each other - surely they have to co-operate. Otherwise you'd have lots of fragmented small communities having to develop technology in isolation and in parallel. That would be hugely wasteful. If you believe that competition is more efficient in some way then how can you believe that anarchism is the best structure for society?

Competition fragments society and only benefits them at the top.You seem to have swallowed the neoliberal propaganda that competition is good for us.








/scarpers, chuckling as he goes
 
Disagree - scientific innovation is based on research that other people have done and published. Like I said, both software and hardware of computers which I'd have thought have led to most of recent scientific innovation have been fundamentally based on standards and co-operative. Yes the companies are competing but they needn't have been, and competition hinders scientific innovation rather than helps it.



I'm not involved in research but I doubt that, too. Research is normally now done in teams that co-operate on the research rather than each trying to compete against the rest of the team. The researchers I've seen are happy to talk about their research with the scientific community and share ideas. It's only in companies who are secretive or where someone has an idea they want the glory for that they don't. Again, competition damages research not helps it.

It's all based on education which is again a collaboration. You can introduce competition there too, but again I doubt it has any benefit. Any greater desire to succeed by beating other people I'd have thought would be constrictive and raise stress levels - people don't perform well under stress.

Peer review is an example of collaboration, too.



Nope. Proprietary standards are only useful to the company and only succeed if other companies co-operate by building to that standard. They are hated by users - what use is a communications board that doesn't communicate with other manufacturers' equipment? It ties people into that one company which can force up costs because they're hooked into that proprietary standard.



Do anarchists not prefer co-operation to competition? I'm surprised and a bit wary of anarchism if that's not so. It makes no sense for small communities to compete against each other - surely they have to co-operate. Otherwise you'd have lots of fragmented small communities having to develop technology in isolation and in parallel. That would be hugely wasteful. If you believe that competition is more efficient in some way then how can you believe that anarchism is the best structure for society?

Competition fragments society and only benefits them at the top.You seem to have swallowed the neoliberal propaganda that competition is good for us.








/scarpers, chuckling as he goes

You appear to be mistaking my analysis of capitalism and how it functions, for my opinion of capitalism.

Silly Billy.
 
You appear to be mistaking my analysis of capitalism and how it functions, for my opinion of capitalism.

Silly Billy.

But if you're saying that competition is a better approach (in research, in whatever), how can you believe that anarchism (which surely has to prize co-operation over competition) is better?

Just accept it, you had a slight brain freeze from which I have freed you. :thumbs:
 
But if you're saying that competition is a better approach (in research, in whatever)..

No, I'm saying that under capitalism it's the FAVOURED approach.

...how can you believe that anarchism (which surely has to prize co-operation over competition) is better?

Competition/competitive behaviour is a fact of human psychology. Co-operation is a means of directing that behaviour.

Just accept it, you had a slight brain freeze from which I have freed you. :thumbs:

Pfft.
 
No, I'm saying that under capitalism it's the FAVOURED approach.

ooooh no - all other statements you could just about have got away with that but you were clearly disagreeing with me and I was clearly agreeing that it's the favoured approach but I was saying it was wrong and you included ...

Companies running their own standards also works well, especially within the tech market.

you were defending it :D

if you wouldn't have phrased it like that if you'd been disagreeing. I was quite clear from my first post.

Competition/competitive behaviour is a fact of human psychology. Co-operation is a means of directing that behaviour.

or you could say that competition is a means of directing that behaviour - both are equally meaningless :)


Pfft indeed.

I've learned tonight that anarchists can't admit they're wrong :(
 

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ooooh no - all other statements you could just about have got away with that but you were clearly disagreeing with me and I was clearly agreeing that it's the favoured approach but I was saying it was wrong and you included ...



you were defending it :D

You're a bit dim, aren't you? It works well for many tech companies that do it. That isn't a defence, it's a statement of fact.

if you wouldn't have phrased it like that if you'd been disagreeing. I was quite clear from my first post.



or you could say that competition is a means of directing that behaviour - both are equally meaningless :)



Pfft indeed.

I've learned tonight that anarchists can't admit they're wrong :(

No, you've assumed that an anarchist can't admit he's wrong. Don't project your own failings onto others. It's unedifying. :)
 
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