Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion

[two sheds]

Interesting that a few dozen republicans voted against - interesting to see the Musk/Trump (Mump?) reaction to them. I also didn't realize that the democrats have got a majority in the senate. Presumably a lot of executive orders to come.

 

[Boo Radley75]

Hasn't even been inaugurated yet and looks like he's already triggered off a government Christmas shut down, thanks to even many Republicans not able to stomach his and Musk's shit...

Trump-backed bill to keep US government running fails to pass

Dozens of Republicans defied Trump and tech billionaire Elon Musk by joining Democrats to reject a revised spending bill.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[emanymton]

Why not start with the premise that working class people and for that matter voters are the same as yourself? That's surely the only way to even begin, even think about beginning, to build something viable?

Are they though? What does being the same mean? Many of them seem very different to me and understand things in a completely different way to me. To go extreme with it anyone who can go down to a hotel housing asylum seekers and try to burn it down is not the same as me, neither is anyone who complaints about 2 tier justice when people are sent down for that.

If you start by assuming they are the same as you your will approach things in a way that makes sense to you, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to them.

 

[two sheds]

I see it that we all act on the information we've accepted as being true/important.

 

[Sue]

Ah, sorry, I thought you were referring to someone elses whinge. With the Sweet FA one, maybe it was misconstrued but you can hardly blame Breads for being touchy after the unmitigated bullying shit some people have aimed their way.

I may have missed this but I'm mainly seeing people asking them to back up their assertions and them getting cross about it..?

 

[emanymton]

I may have missed this but I'm mainly seeing people asking them to back up their assertions and them getting cross about it..?

There was some shit a few days ago that was over the line and unnecessary in my opinion.

 

[moochedit]

Interesting that a few dozen republicans voted against - interesting to see the Musk/Trump (Mump?) reaction to them. I also didn't realize that the democrats have got a majority in the senate. Presumably a lot of executive orders to come.

The new senete hasn't taken over yet. Think that happens after jan 1st.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Interesting that a few dozen republicans voted against - interesting to see the Musk/Trump (Mump?) reaction to them. I also didn't realize that the democrats have got a majority in the senate. Presumably a lot of executive orders to come.

They don't. Repubs have small majorities in both houses.

Eta: Will have. Trump / new senate kit yet in place. Transition time is an odd thing.

 

[two sheds]

ah ok the article I saw said the dems had the majority, didn't mention that would change.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I see it that we all act on the information we've accepted as being true/important.

Yes, I agree. And you may share interests with other people but act differently because of a difference in information/different interpretation of the same information.

So it follows, no, that if you want to change people's minds, which ultimately is what we're talking about here, you have to either present them with new information or give them a different interpretation of the same information?

If their interests are different from yours then that doesn't matter - they may interpret the same information the same way and yet still act differently from you. However, part of the process is surely to persuade people that they share the same interests. I think that's probably the biggest part of the battle.

ETA: Looking at this from a US perspective, I would think healthcare ought to be the big unifying force. Doesn't matter who you voted for, unless you're in the top 10% or so of earners, your health security is compromised by the current system. How to get the 90% thinking similarly about their similar interests?

 

[andysays]

I may have missed this but I'm mainly seeing people asking them to back up their assertions and them getting cross about it..?

TBF, some posters here, even before the recent influx of newbies, have long considered people asking them to back up their assertions as unmitigated bullying shit.

 

[two sheds]

and some of the assertions were backed up amongst unmitigated bullying shit

 

[two sheds]

Brexiteers were stupid for voting for brexit, remainers were stupid for voting for remain, labour supporters were stupid for voting for labour, non voters were stupid for letting the tories and reform have a good shot at gaining power, trump supporters were stupid for voting for trump, and harris supporters were stupid for voting for harris,

Can we all just accept that everyone is stupid ("apart from me")

 

[moochedit]

Can we all just accept that everyone is stupid ("apart from me")

Shut the fuck up you idiot

 

[two sheds]

 

[hitmouse]

ETA: Looking at this from a US perspective, I would think healthcare ought to be the big unifying force. Doesn't matter who you voted for, unless you're in the top 10% or so of earners, your health security is compromised by the current system. How to get the 90% thinking similarly about their similar interests?

That Luigi fellow seems to have been impressively successful at getting people to think radical thoughts about healthcare.

 

[Wilf]

To deny hierarchies and how powerful people can manipulate you through the dissemination of lies is an undeniable truth. How they shape reality by blaming, othering and getting you to punch down rather than look up so they can divide and rule was transparently exposed by the last administration, and Trump and his cabal of lunatics are doing exactly the same thing.

If you are fully engaged and have critical thinking skills, you should be able to realise this, it is simply evident.

Are they though? What does being the same mean? Many of them seem very different to me and understand things in a completely different way to me. To go extreme with it anyone who can go down to a hotel housing asylum seekers and try to burn it down is not the same as me, neither is anyone who complaints about 2 tier justice when people are sent down for that.

If you start by assuming they are the same as you your will approach things in a way that makes sense to you, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to them.

My reply is in response to both of these posts, though I realise you are saying different things - and maybe I'm replying to things you are not even saying. Anyway... I'll leap in with the racist attacks and the horrors that followed the Southport killings. Yes, of course, most of the people involved are far beyond the reach of the left and have done hideous things. As discussed back on that thread, some though not all, were living lives so precarious and fucked over that they are also not in a place that's open to change. But what does leaving 'those people' in a box, the untouchables, achieve? Anyone who has been on the left over the years has seen people come back from that particular brink, sometimes becoming militant anti fascists. This isn't a numbers thing, I'm not suggesting swathes of racists, of EDL twats and the rest are likely to 'come back', but it is about emphasising social forces, campaigning, organising, the state of society - all the usual stuff.

When it comes to being the same, it's also about the old and obvious stuff, if at least you believe in class politics. It's about interests and the belief there's a basis for common fights against common enemies. Against the current phase of neoliberalism. That's not a naive belief that the working class is a homogeneous mass of easily organised workers, poised to throw off the shackles of capital. Similarly, I've retired with a secure (teachers) pension after a lifetime of stable work, housing and the rest. Millions of others are not in that position and in that sense, yes, there are 'differences'. But y'know, labour and capital, the belief that there's a basis there to work with others with common interests... what other basis could there be to attack the different structures of oppression and power? It's difficult, it's a hard slog, it's often depressing as fuck. And yes, social media has become an increasingly powerful echo chamber driven by various forms of toxicity and capital. But if your premise is large swathes of humanity are too thick or supine to even come into the game, how do you begin to recruit to your union branch, to organise against domestic violence, to fight racism and all the rest?

 

[emanymton]

That Luigi fellow seems to have been impressively successful at getting people to think radical thoughts about healthcare.

So your saying we need more assassinations. I'll get started on a list.

More seriously, has he, is there any evidence of that? Just because people support him to some extent it doesn't mean they have changed their views about healthcare in the US.

 

[Wilf]

If you start by assuming they are the same as you your will approach things in a way that makes sense to you, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to them.

I think this kind of gets to the heart of it, though we are probably round corners from each other. I think it is about understanding how people you oppose think about things, which in turn brings in life experiences and takes us back to neoliberalism and the global economy. Some people are racists, some people are all kinds of horrible things, but you have to look at people's actual experiences.

Not to make some ghastly liberal attempt at excusing racism and the rest - fight racism physically and politically - but just to have the most basic sense of how your society (and your class) works.

 

[emanymton]

My reply is in response to both of these posts, though I realise you are saying different things - and maybe I'm replying to things you are not even saying. Anyway... I'll leap in with the racist attacks and the horrors that followed the Southport killings. Yes, of course, most of the people involved are far beyond the reach of the left and have done hideous things. As discussed back on that thread, some though not all, were living lives so precarious and fucked over that they are also not in a place that's open to change. But what does leaving 'those people' in a box, the untouchables, achieve? Anyone who has been on the left over the years has seen people come back from that particular brink, sometimes becoming militant anti fascists. This isn't a numbers thing, I'm not suggesting swathes of racists, of EDL twats and the rest are likely to 'come back', but it is about emphasising social forces, campaigning, organising, the state of society - all the usual stuff.

When it comes to being the same, it's also about the old and obvious stuff, if at least you believe in class politics. It's about interests and the belief there's a basis for common fights against common enemies. Against the current phase of neoliberalism. That's not a naive belief that the working class is a homogeneous mass of easily organised workers, poised to throw off the shackles of capital. Similarly, I've retired with a secure (teachers) pension after a lifetime of stable work, housing and the rest. Millions of others are not in that position and in that sense, yes, there are 'differences'. But y'know, labour and capital, the belief that there's a basis there to work with others with common interests... what other basis could there be to attack the different structures of oppression and power? It's difficult, it's a hard slog, it's often depressing as fuck. And yes, social media has become an increasingly powerful echo chamber driven by various forms of toxicity and capital. But if your premise is large swathes of humanity are too thick or supine to even come into the game, how do you begin to recruit to your union branch, to organise against domestic violence, to fight racism and all the rest?

I should be working so a few quick points.

Let's stick with using stupid, I do think there is a language issue here have figured out about what is the best terms to use.

Why is saying people are stupid writing them of? It's not automatic that they go to the right.

Why is being "stupid" even bad? I'm certainly no Einstein, and I'd rather spend time with a stupid nice person that a smart unpleasant one.

Okay so by same you mean having the same interests. As LBJ says getting other people to recognise that is the real challenge.

What I think I'm saying is that many people out there see the things in a way very different from me and you, they process information in a way very differnt from me and you. That needs to be understood or you can't reach those people.

And frankly maybe we can't anyway things are getting worse and I don't see that changing, I don't really see a point in trying to reach millions we simply can't. We need to think much smaller in scale.

 

[ska invita]

Hasn't even been inaugurated yet and looks like he's already triggered off a government Christmas shut down, thanks to even many Republicans not able to stomach his and Musk's shit...

Trump-backed bill to keep US government running fails to pass

Dozens of Republicans defied Trump and tech billionaire Elon Musk by joining Democrats to reject a revised spending bill.

www.bbc.co.uk

Im confused, as supposedly Musk is taking credit for the shut down i.e. this is something he wants to happen (and those Publicans who support the shut down support Musk??)

Thats the impression I got from this

Musk flexes influence over Congress in shutdown drama

Musk and Trump quickly derailed a stopgap spending bill, showing their power before the president-elect even takes office.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[moochedit]

Im confused, as supposedly Musk is taking credit for the shut down i.e. this is something he wants to happen (and those Publicans who support the shut down support Musk??)

Thats the impression I got from this

Musk flexes influence over Congress in shutdown drama

Musk and Trump quickly derailed a stopgap spending bill, showing their power before the president-elect even takes office.

www.bbc.co.uk

Isn't this "shutdown row" thing an annual event? Pretty sure it happens every year with a last min comprimise after both sides play chicken for a few weeks.

 

[xenon]

I'd need a lot more information to make any inferences. How many searches does it take to push a query up to number one? How frequently was that search made on other days?

Exactly. Also, who was making those searches? People from outside the EU? Children who were hearing a lot more about this EU thing?

Ah it was UK Google users. Even if a significant proportion of voters in the 2016 referrendam did not actually know what the EU is, where does that leave us. Just point and laugh, shake head, call them names. Fine if that's how you wanna spend Christmas but it has limited utility...

 

[Wilf]

I should be working so a few quick points.

Let's stick with using stupid, I do think there is a language issue here have figured out about what is the best terms to use.

Why is saying people are stupid writing them of? It's not automatic that they go to the right.

Why is being "stupid" even bad? I'm certainly no Einstein, and I'd rather spend time with a stupid nice person that a smart unpleasant one.

Okay so by same you mean having the same interests. As LBJ says getting other people to recognise that is the real challenge.

What I think I'm saying is that many people out there see the things in a way very different from me and you, they process information in a way very differnt from me and you. That needs to be understood or you can't reach those people.

And frankly maybe we can't anyway things are getting worse and I don't see that changing, I don't really see a point in trying to reach millions we simply can't. We need to think much smaller in scale.

Just on 'stupid', I think there's always going to be a disparity between wanting to build something around class while having a group/subset designated as stupid.

But yes, tend to agree, things are probably the worst they've been in my adult life. Neoliberalism has fucked us over, union membership has halved from it's peak in the 70s and the conditions for constructing a fightback are very difficult. And before I get too preachy, I'm hardly involved in anything myself at the moment give or take the odd Palestine meeting. I agree, it's not actually about imagining movements of millions, it's about reconfiguring a few things. For me though, the existence of those common bonds and interests are at the heart of peeling back some of the layers of conspiracy theories and similar filth that divide us from each other.

 

[ska invita]

Isn't this "shutdown row" thing an annual event? Pretty sure it happens every year with a last min comprimise after both sides play chicken for a few weeks.

Yes but i was querying "thanks to even many Republicans not able to stomach his and Musk's shit..." - it seems to be the other way around - Muskites stopping it ??

I dont really care tbh - Musk coming out for Alternative for Deutschland is genuinely newsworthy

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes but i was querying "thanks to even many Republicans not able to stomach his and Musk's shit..." - it seems to be the other way around - Muskites stopping it ??

I dont really care tbh - Musk coming out for Alternative for Deutschland is genuinely newsworthy

Fucking hell. I hadn't seen that. Trump's not even the most extreme extremist in his inner circle.

 

[hitmouse]

So your saying we need more assassinations. I'll get started on a list.

More seriously, has he, is there any evidence of that? Just because people support him to some extent it doesn't mean they have changed their views about healthcare in the US.

Good question, I was basically giving an anecdotal/I reckon answer there, but a little bit of digging turns this up: https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.n...e___Murder_of_Brian_Thompson_poll_results.pdf
Lots of data there that you can choose to take one way or another, but I'll take the key finding as being that I think 61% have either a "very unfavourable" or "somewhat unfavourable" view of the healthcare industry (along with the fact that 2% seem to view Mangione favourably than they do Thompson - not a straightforward win though cos M gets lots more unfavourables as well, T gets more "I don't knows").
Did a little bit more digging, and I think that unfavourability ranking is really considerably higher than what it's been historically:

Healthcare System

What would you say is the most urgent health problem facing this country at the present time? [Open-ended] Do you think it is the responsibility of the federal government to make sure all Americans have health care coverage, or is that not the responsibility of the federal government?

news.gallup.com

 

[Wilf]

... and just to clarify, in asserting class and common interests, I realise that does just about nothing in itself to construct anything effective, whether it be about sexual violence, workplace managerialism, Islamaphobia or other pressing issues. I'm just making what I'd hope is an obvious point, that beginning with notions of the enlightened 'us' and the stupid 'them' breaks that project before it begins.

 

[ska invita]

Fucking hell. I hadn't seen that. Trump's not even the most extreme extremist in his inner circle.

 

[emanymton]

Good question, I was basically giving an anecdotal/I reckon answer there, but a little bit of digging turns this up: https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.n...e___Murder_of_Brian_Thompson_poll_results.pdf
Lots of data there that you can choose to take one way or another, but I'll take the key finding as being that I think 61% have either a "very unfavourable" or "somewhat unfavourable" view of the healthcare industry (along with the fact that 2% seem to view Mangione favourably than they do Thompson - not a straightforward win though cos M gets lots more unfavourables as well, T gets more "I don't knows").
Did a little bit more digging, and I think that unfavourability ranking is really considerably higher than what it's been historically:

Healthcare System

What would you say is the most urgent health problem facing this country at the present time? [Open-ended] Do you think it is the responsibility of the federal government to make sure all Americans have health care coverage, or is that not the responsibility of the federal government?

news.gallup.com

View attachment 455739

I'll take it as supporting what my own I reckon view. Which is that that I think there is a difference between views on the healthcare system and on the companys/individuals in it. It's not the system that is the problem just bad people in charge.