Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion

[LDC]

So I don't massively disagree with what you are saying, and I think LBJ post above is a very good summary of my feelings as well.

A lot of it is about emphasis, what I'm seeing is a lot of post saying maybe Trump voters are rascist but the REAL reason they vote trump is becuase they feel marginalised and not listened. Now to be clear I think there more than just rascism to blame, it looks like misogyny may have been a significant factor as well, but it general it just comes down to being a shitty human being.

My feelings are as follows:

1 - the real marginalised people don't vote for Trump, they don't vote at all.

2 - while people vote for Trump for a combination of reasons being a shitty human being is as real a reason as feeling marginalised.

3 - While there are material resosn for people being shit they run very deep and cannot be explained by what the Democrats did over the last couple of years.

4 - People say we need to understand, but if you denny or downplay the role played by rascism etc then you are not understanding anything.

5 - Acting like they have a point is more likely to reinforce their existing beliefs than challenge them.

6 - Many of these people have beliefs that are at best fucking nuts and at worst deeply unpleasant and reactionary, and it can be those that they are taking about when they say they are not listened to.

7 - the point I wanted to make but forgot

8 - the other point I was going to make but forgot

9- Any proposed strategy that doesn't take the above into account is probably not going to work. Also a lot of people are talking about this without defining what there strategy is for. A long term goal of worldwide socialist revolution? How to make sure Trump looses in 4 years? How best to reset Trumo over the next 4 years? How to deal with it come the next GE in the UK when Labour are likely to loose? All are valid and can overlap. But without clarity in that just going on about strategy doesn't mean much really.

On strategy I wrote this recently. It's very incomplete and inevitably flawed, but it's been useful as a starting point.

What is to be done… now! - Angry Workers

Developing a revolutionary strategy for the years ahead We document this text written by a comrade of ours. Enjoy! This is the text of a pamphlet written for a talk and discussion at the 30th Earth First! Summer Gathering in July 2024 by someone involved in Earth First! and various ecological...

www.angryworkers.org

On what to do depending on what you want (your point 9) I'll repeat what I wrote earlier, which is in that whatever our 'end goal politics' are, currently we're so fragmented that for the broad left much of what we need to do is pretty much the same; hard work where we live and work to create a radical left alternative to right wing politics in a number of different areas; cultural, social, practical and then obviously more overtly political, likely through a variety of social and political organisations and groups.

 

[emanymton]

On strategy I wrote this recently. It's very incomplete and inevitably flawed, but it's been useful as a starting point.

What is to be done… now! - Angry Workers

Developing a revolutionary strategy for the years ahead We document this text written by a comrade of ours. Enjoy! This is the text of a pamphlet written for a talk and discussion at the 30th Earth First! Summer Gathering in July 2024 by someone involved in Earth First! and various ecological...

www.angryworkers.org

Oh God now you are giving me homework.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Everyone looking forward to 14th July 2028?

View attachment 450061

1936 Olympics?

 

[emanymton]

Why is it downplaying or denying the role played by racism? Surely that's part of the understanding?

None of us are inherently racist or not racist. We get to that point courtesy of a bunch of external conditions (when/where we grow up, who we grew up with, who we meet and what happens along the way, etc).

I'd like there to be fewer people who are racist, or at the very least fewer people who act on those feelings.

I'm going to assume none of us think no-one who voted for Obama is someone we'd consider racist, in some way or another. So, why'd they vote for Obama despite that?

I want to know why people are racist, so I can either reverse that or stop that, but also why people act on that racism, so again, at the very least, we can reduce the impact of it, while we work on the rest.

I must be writing especially shit today, as I don't think you are disagreeing with me really. I think people are downplaying issues like rascism when they talk about understanding why people voted for Trump as, when it is absolutely part of the reason for many of them. And they resosn behind thst run much deeper than maybe feeling like a Democrat looked down their nose at them on twitter once.

 

[Sasaferrato]

From what I have read it is the price of groceries that has handed this to Trump. Despite the overall US economy doing better, people felt that they were working more and getting less.

 

[brogdale]

1936 Olympics?

Yep, if he survives, Trump will clearly relish the attention of the Summer 2028 LA opening ceremony.

 

[emanymton]

Not sure that's politics, but anyway for me that explains some of what you've posted about this, what I get from your posts is that you have a pretty pessimistic position with not much hope for things being able to get better.

I guess I should try to answer this. I don't really lable myself just vaguely left and socialists these days.

I have never had much optimism, but what I have really lost is the anger. Not the moment to moment rage, but just the general sense of fury at the injustice in the world, I have just got more of a sense of despair than anger these days.

 

[tim]

thanks for taking the time to demonstrate you have impaired mental capacity and a level of lack of insight that borders on sectionable... typical 'I'm alright Jack' centrist dad guff

there is only one solution to fascism and it is final in nature

Why are you bothering to argue on here?

Why aren't you out implementing your Final Solution for those you class as Fascists and getting their centrist dad fellow travellers incarcerated in psychiatric institutions?

 

[brogdale]

If you are not familiar with the talking down of low earners and the unemployed, the blaming of the poor for their circumstances and the general 'pull yourself up by the bootstraps' mentality that has been doing the rounds for close to 50 years now, you're doing very well to avoid it.

Yeah, I know full well how the neoliberal state, their outriders and media have sought to characterise elements and cohorts of our class; I'm just a little taken aback to see that cast as a general, internalised belief of low self-worth/unsuccessful. I'm just not used to those around me (family & friends) thinking like that. Maybe your experience is different?

I see above that LDC acknowledges that opening doorstep/workplace convos with class might not always be appropriate, but I agree with them that there's no merit in avoiding class. Let's also remember that even neoliberal parties like the LP find themselves compelled to talk about working (class) people in positive ways; I just don't see the connection between being working class and unsuccessful that you suggested.

 

[Lord Camomile]

I must be writing especially shit today, as I don't think you are disagreeing with me really. I think people are downplaying issues like rascism when they talk about understanding why people voted for Trump as, when it is absolutely part of the reason for many of them. And they resosn behind thst run much deeper than maybe feeling like a Democrat looked down their nose at them on twitter once.

Tbh, I kinda got lost in that post anyway, as I'd actually been in the middle of writing a lengthier post that I've since abandoned, so my thoughts were a bit all over the place.

Fair enough. Speaking personally, I think I'd simply disagree that it is downplaying issues like racism when wanting to understand why people voted for Trump.

 

[Wilf]

unfortunately Trump's team seemed to do a much better job of communicating with the future electorate via podcasts, social, influencers etc than the Dems.

It's pretty much everything that's wrong with modern communications and media - lies, echo chambers fear mongering, the end of truth - that's it, that's the Trump/Musk/far right strategy. And it hits home because the Democrats and the old establishment have long since abandoned the working class to their neo-liberal fate.

 

[danny la rouge]

Funnily enough, "feeling smug and superior" is what I see in the people denying racism

I’m maybe missing something here, but I’m not seeing anyone denying racism. Who is denying racism?

the ones who, yes, are saying you can't admit when bigots are doing bigotted things.

Where has this been said? It seems to me like you’re reading something that isn’t there into what people have said.

I give up. I'm not going to reply to anyone any more, so sorry if that seems rude, because I'm just going to put this whole section on ignore.

I’m sorry you feel that way.

I think it’s important to think about what the Democrats could have done differently to win.

Sanders was right when he said that the Democratic leadership defends the status quo while “angry” Americans want change “and they’re right”.

“It should come as no great surprise that a Democratic Party which has abandoned working class people would find that the working class has abandoned them,”

“First it was the white working class and now it is Latino and black workers,” he added.

“Will the big money interests and well-paid consultants who control the Democratic Party learn any real lessons from this disastrous campaign? Will they understand the pain and political alienation that tens of millions of Americans are experiencing? Do they have any ideas as to how we can take on the increasingly powerful Oligarchy which has so much economic and political power? Probably not.”

The Democrat campaign didn’t hear people. It’s didn’t talk about the things that mattered to people: the fact that ordinary people are struggling, that “more of the same” is unthinkable, that they’re hurting. The Democrats addressed none of that. They lost the campaign as much as Trump won it.

They weren’t listening to people. They, and the Democrat-supporting media, were going wild over a “viral” camouflage hat with Harris Walz on it. That looked irrelevant to people.

If the Democrats want to win, they have to show they understand that the messages “more of the same” and “look, a cool hat!” are not going to do it.

That is not excusing racism. Nor is it refusing to admit bigots are doing bigoted things. It’s saying “fuck sake, Democratic Party, read the room!”

Are a lot of American voters voting Trump for bigoted and racist reasons. No doubt. And it’s a worry.

But ffs, Democrats, “look, a cool hat!”? Get real.

 

[brogdale]

I’m maybe missing something here, but I’m not seeing anyone denying racism. Who is denying racism?

Where has this been said? It seems to me like you’re reading something that isn’t there into what people have said.

I’m sorry you feel that way.

I think it’s important to think about what the Democrats could have done differently to win.

Sanders was right when he said that the Democratic leadership defends the status quo while “angry” Americans want change “and they’re right”.

“It should come as no great surprise that a Democratic Party which has abandoned working class people would find that the working class has abandoned them,”

“First it was the white working class and now it is Latino and black workers,” he added.

“Will the big money interests and well-paid consultants who control the Democratic Party learn any real lessons from this disastrous campaign? Will they understand the pain and political alienation that tens of millions of Americans are experiencing? Do they have any ideas as to how we can take on the increasingly powerful Oligarchy which has so much economic and political power? Probably not.”

The Democrat campaign didn’t hear people. It’s didn’t talk about the things that mattered to people: the fact that ordinary people are struggling, that “more of the same” is unthinkable, that they’re hurting. The Democrats addressed none of that. They lost the campaign as much as Trump won it.

They weren’t listening to people. They, and the Democrat-supporting media, were going wild over a “viral” camouflage hat with Harris Walz on it. That looked irrelevant to people.

If the Democrats want to win, they have to show they understand that the messages “more of the same” and “look, a cool hat!” are not going to do it.

That is not excusing racism. Nor is it refusing to admit bigots are doing bigoted things. It’s saying “fuck sake, Democratic Party, read the room!”

Are a lot of American voters voting Trump for bigoted and racist reasons. No doubt. And it’s a worry.

But ffs, Democrats, “look, a cool hat!”? Get real.

Even Trump allies like 'tech-bro' billionaire David Sacks, albeit from their own self-interested perspective, have identified how woefully the Dems ignored any real issues or engaged with meaningful policy debate:

 

[krtek a houby]

I’m maybe missing something here, but I’m not seeing anyone denying racism. Who is denying racism?

Where has this been said? It seems to me like you’re reading something that isn’t there into what people have said.

I’m sorry you feel that way.

I think it’s important to think about what the Democrats could have done differently to win.

Sanders was right when he said that the Democratic leadership defends the status quo while “angry” Americans want change “and they’re right”.

“It should come as no great surprise that a Democratic Party which has abandoned working class people would find that the working class has abandoned them,”

“First it was the white working class and now it is Latino and black workers,” he added.

“Will the big money interests and well-paid consultants who control the Democratic Party learn any real lessons from this disastrous campaign? Will they understand the pain and political alienation that tens of millions of Americans are experiencing? Do they have any ideas as to how we can take on the increasingly powerful Oligarchy which has so much economic and political power? Probably not.”

The Democrat campaign didn’t hear people. It’s didn’t talk about the things that mattered to people: the fact that ordinary people are struggling, that “more of the same” is unthinkable, that they’re hurting. The Democrats addressed none of that. They lost the campaign as much as Trump won it.

They weren’t listening to people. They, and the Democrat-supporting media, were going wild over a “viral” camouflage hat with Harris Walz on it. That looked irrelevant to people.

If the Democrats want to win, they have to show they understand that the messages “more of the same” and “look, a cool hat!” are not going to do it.

That is not excusing racism. Nor is it refusing to admit bigots are doing bigoted things. It’s saying “fuck sake, Democratic Party, read the room!”

Are a lot of American voters voting Trump for bigoted and racist reasons. No doubt. And it’s a worry.

But ffs, Democrats, “look, a cool hat!”? Get real.

dlr for 2028!

 

[teuchter]

I think we're all pretty much in the same place in terms of what we need to do; and that is build class power around a reasonably coherent left wing politics where we live and work. It's not going to be easy at all, but to be honest it's the only workable game in town currently.

What's the reason to think this is a "workable game" when it seems to have entirely failed to have happened up until now?

 

[ignatious]

I assume here I'm dicsussing politics with a certain subsection of weirdo political geeks where terms like that aren't a big deal. What it means in 2024 has been discussed on here, plus there's both a huge body of evidence, political analysis, updated thought, etc. on it that helps us.

I'm sure all that stuff's going on and I'm sure all the people doing it are having a grand old time, but it doesn't explain (or maybe it does) why the left struggles to get its ideas across in an accessible way, when the same cultural space is so easily navigated by the right.

It's not all down to access and resources, some of it just seems to be an unwillingness to translate their ideas into plain language.

A fairly recent exception, just by way of an example, would be Bernie Sanders going on Joe Rogan (and subsequently getting endorsed, so it can be done if it's authentic). But when Kamala Harris was asked to go on she said no, and instead offered to do an hour long interview somewhere else in the country. Obviously, she was told where to go. I know she would not be considered to be of the left on here, but it all came across as the 'deplorables' not being worthy of her time.

I just don't see the connection between being working class and unsuccessful that you suggested.

Well, as you recognise, we live in a cultural milieu where people are constantly encouraged to define their self worth by what they earn and what they own. The connection seems quite obvious to me. (FTR, I am not justifying or agreeing with the sentiment, merely observing it as an effect).

 

[brogdale]

I'm sure all that stuff's going on and I'm sure all the people doing it are having a grand old time, but it doesn't explain (or maybe it does) why the left struggles to get its ideas across in an accessible way, when the same cultural space is so easily navigated by the right.

But that's an absurdly reductive dismissal of cultural hegemony.

 

[LDC]

What's the reason to think this is a "workable game" when it seems to have entirely failed to have happened up until now?

It's a good question, but there's 3 parts to that really.

1) Why has it not really happened?
2) Has it worked before?
3) Can it work now?

It's not happened in recent times as the left that used to do that kind of thing has been smashed and replaced by other political forms, but also in truth we've partly won over by what capital has offered in the last decades. Plus a few more complicated bits that I can't be arsed to go into.

It has clearly worked before here, and has worked (to some extent) in other time periods and in other countries currently. When I say worked, it's ultimately failed if judged on the grounds of there being a complete or wider radical change of society, but the nuts of bolts of what's needed has been shown to be workable.

So that leads me to says, yes, it could work now. In fact given the failure of parliamentary politics, activist politics, NGOs, just hoping, etc. to stop things getting worse I'd say it's the only thing that looks like a workable option now.

I say all this with the caveat that I am completely open to both, (a) accepting we're broadly fucked and a radical shift towards a better world is now out of the reach of humanity (barring something else emerging after some kind of collapse or crisis of the current system), and (b) someone giving me a convincing strategy that looks more likely.

 

[emanymton]

I’m maybe missing something here, but I’m not seeing anyone denying racism. Who is denying racism?

Where has this been said? It seems to me like you’re reading something that isn’t there into what people have said.

Danny you are an amazing poster and I am sure you are a wonderful person, way better than me.

But multiple people are saying very similar things across a couple of threads. And I don't think it's fair to just dismiss it "reading something that isn't there". It's not the best thing to say to one person, but when multiple people are saying it, there is something.

 

[ignatious]

But that's an absurdly reductive dismissal of cultural hegemony.

consults dictionary If there is cultural hegemony, why is so much right wing content aimed at 'wokeness' and 'owning the libs'?

 

[LDC]

I'm sure all that stuff's going on and I'm sure all the people doing it are having a grand old time, but it doesn't explain (or maybe it does) why the left struggles to get its ideas across in an accessible way, when the same cultural space is so easily navigated by the right.

It's not all down to access and resources, some of it just seems to be an unwillingness to translate their ideas into plain language.

A fairly recent exception, just by way of an example, would be Bernie Sanders going on Joe Rogan (and subsequently getting endorsed, so it can be done if it's authentic). But when Kamala Harris was asked to go on she said no, and instead offered to do an hour long interview somewhere else in the country. Obviously, she was told where to go. I know she would not be considered to be of the left on here, but it all came across as the 'deplorables' not being worthy of her time.

Well, as you recognise, we live in a cultural milieu where people are constantly encouraged to define their self worth by what they earn and what they own. The connection seems quite obvious to me. (FTR, I am not justifying or agreeing with the sentiment, merely observing it as an effect).

I think there's some stuff that's emerged in the last couple of decades (or so) that is very, very complicated to us to deal with as well; immigration on a different scale than before and social media (and associated disinfomation) that helps the right and really puts the left as it is now in a position of increasingly reactionary weakness. There's also the backdrop of the crisis in capitalism which is starting to show more clearly for many, the impending ecological and climate crisis, a possible/likely global war, and the widespread emergence of AI coming up as well. All of which make the situation much more complex that ever before in human history.

 

[Sue]

dlr for 2028!

I'm going to reserve judgement until I see his hat ideas.

 

[brogdale]

consults dictionary If there is cultural hegemony, why is so much right wing content aimed at 'wokeness' and 'owning the libs'?

I really don't understand what you've written there. But, you've said yourself that "ingrained aspiration" has led working class people to equate their class with a lack of success. To then not accept the cultural hegemony of the dominant class seems odd.

 

[Artaxerxes]

If you get any sort of food or drug products from America your going to need to stock up before Trump gets in

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think there's some stuff that's emerged in the last couple of decades (or so) that is very, very complicated to us to deal with as well; immigration on a different scale than before and social media (and associated disinfomation) that helps the right and really puts the left as it is now in a position of increasingly reactionary weakness. There's also the backdrop of the crisis in capitalism which is starting to show more clearly for many, the impending ecological and climate crisis, a possible/likely global war, and the widespread emergence of AI coming up as well. All of which make the situation much more complex that ever before in human history.

Are we talking about the US specifically here? Because I reject this idea entirely. At various points in its history, the US has seen huge waves of immigration – in terms of size relative to the existing population every bit as big as recent numbers. There was a sustained period of mass migration to the US from around 1860 to 1920, for example.

 

[LDC]

Are we talking about the US specifically here? Because I reject this idea entirely. At various points in its history, the US has seen huge waves of immigration – in terms of size relative to the existing population every bit as big as recent numbers. There was a sustained period of mass migration to the US from around 1860 to 1920, for example.

No, not the US, was thinking here/Europe. But even over there it's perceived by many as an issue, so it does need to be thought about how to counter it politically in a way we didn't 30+ years ago.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

From what I have read it is the price of groceries that has handed this to Trump. Despite the overall US economy doing better, people felt that they were working more and getting less.

I have family who moved to the states a year or so ago, the price of shopping is insane, £18 for a dozen eggs!

 

[Sasaferrato]

Are we talking about the US specifically here? Because I reject this idea entirely. At various points in its history, the US has seen huge waves of immigration – in terms of size relative to the existing population every bit as big as recent numbers. There was a sustained period of mass migration to the US from around 1860 to 1920, for example.

Every white person in the US is an immigrant or descendant of an immigrant.

I see the US in miniature with our two cats. Both just wombled in, neither was chosen by us. Effie, the first one one hisses at Shadow, the second one, because 'she was here first' completely ignoring the fact that they are both 'immigrants'.

 

[teuchter]

It's a good question, but there's 3 parts to that really.

1) Why has it not really happened?
2) Has it worked before?
3) Can it work now?

It's not happened in recent times as the left that used to do that kind of thing has been smashed and replaced by other political forms, but also in truth we've partly won over by what capital has offered in the last decades. Plus a few more complicated bits that I can't be arsed to go into.

It has clearly worked before here, and has worked (to some extent) in other time periods and in other countries currently. When I say worked, it's ultimately failed if judged on teh grounds of there being a complete radical change of society, but the nuts of bolts of what's needed has been shown to be workable.

So that leads me to says, yes, it could work now. In fact given the failure of parliamentary politics, activist politics, NGOs, wishful thinking, just hoping, etc. to stop things getting worse I'd say it's the only thing that looks like a workable option now.

I say all this with the caveat that I am completely open to both, (a) accepting we're broadly fucked and a radical shift towards a better world is now out of the reach of humanity (barring something else emerging after some kind of collapse or crisis of the current system), and (b) someone giving me a convincing strategy that looks more likely.

The bit in bold, which other countries? Are they vaguely similar to the UK?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

The tariff stuff is shrewd, he's going to pay for tax cuts to the rich via a 20% tariff, which essentially is a flat tax, meaning the poor will fund the rich tax cut. And who in the polls backs a tariff...the same idiots who voted for him.