Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion

[brogdale]

Interesting comments here from a Guardian piece about reproductive rights under Trump II....

Because he’s barred from a third term Trump can now do whatever he wants without fear of electoral consequences, said Mary Ziegler, a professor at the University of California, Davis who studies the legal history of reproduction.

“He’s playing with house money,” Ziegler said. “He can do whatever he’s going to do without fear of conservative Christian voters, without fear of swing voters, without fear of anybody. And he doesn’t have Roe v Wade and he has a conservative supreme court, so that means he could do really aggressive things to limit abortion or IVF – or not. We don’t know.”

This, of course, works both ways. Trump now has no need of any particular electoral cohorts or funding and, if he's not that motivated, could ignore any superstructural issues that he pleases. I'm not convinced that he'll be at all bothered about Republican fortunes after 2029 either. I suspect the real action will be driven by his tech/fincap allies who will be egging on the Randian stuff.

 

[InArduisFouette]

There is no strategy for people like InArduisFouette and many others

They literally have nothing beyond angrily accusing people of misogyny, racism, transphobia etc.

They are incapable of even beginning to understand why people who think differently to them might do so or how form an argument against misogyny, racism, transphobia etc, and are an obstruction to coming up with a coherent strategy to counter Trump and other manifestations of the far right.

thanks for taking the time to demonstrate you have impaired mental capacity and a level of lack of insight that borders on sectionable... typical 'I'm alright Jack' centrist dad guff

there is only one solution to fascism and it is final in nature

 

[andysays]

thanks for taking the time to demonstrate you have impaired mental capacity and a level of lack of insight that borders on sectionable... typical 'I'm alright Jack' centrist dad guff

there is only one solution to fascism and it is final in nature

Thank you for demonstrating my point.

 

[scifisam]

The thing I don't get with all the "just call 'em racists" stuff is, what's the strategy? What are we trying to achieve? Like, sure, if people just need catharsis then that's fine, I don't wanna knock that. But at some point you have to ask, how do we move towards a world, or state of affairs or whatever, where stuff like this doesn't keep happening? The "try and engage with people respectfully" approach is difficult, and most of the time it'll fail like most projects fail, but at least I understand where it's coming from and what it's trying to do.

What "just call them racists" stuff is that? Nobody's actually doing that.

Admitting that they are voting in large part due to bigotry (incl. sexism and classism - let's not pretend it's just about race) is important, because otherwise what conversations can you have? How can you "engage with people" if you're trying to double-think away a large part of their reasoning?

 

[LDC]

This, we can't say they are thick, selfish or biggots, but we can treat them like they don't understand what they are voting for. I know which I think is more insulting.

And I'm not saying calling them these things is a strategy, I'm saying thay if we denny this then I don't think that is understanding anything and is not going to get anywhere.

Nobody has said you can't say that, but reducing people to being solely one thing (stupid/racist/etc.) is neither accurate as a singular explanation nor (and more importantly) is it useful in creating better politics. As hitmouse has said where does it leave you strategically? As I have said before I think it's more helpful to say people have racist views, and then of course those views need to be challenged as part of what we need to do, etc. etc. But shouting and using 'they're racists' as an 'explainer' is part of the problem, not part of any solution, unless you count feeling smug and superior yourself as some kind of an answer?

One of the things that much of the left really doesn't get is that politics is about power and control not morals or ethics. Slightly broader than that it for most people is about the material conditions of their daily lives. Most people don't know (or care) about the day-to-day weirdness of party politics and other such political geekery. The right wing gets all these things very well.

Whatever our exact end goal (libertarian communist revolution / social democratic reforms / whatever) I think we're all pretty much in the same place in terms of what we need to do; and that is build class power around a reasonably coherent left wing politics where we live and work. It's not going to be easy at all, but to be honest it's the only workable game in town currently.

 

[Cloo]

My guess is Trump's 2nd term will be dominated by his mass deportation push. It'll be a disaster in execution, economically and in humanitarian terms. He won't get anything like 10s of millions, it'll cost loads, take up masses of time, scoop up 1000s of actual US citizens who will be caught in a kafka-esque nightmare, and Midwestern farmers will have a serious worker shortage. Trump's fans will love it.

 

[scifisam]

Nobody has said you can't say that, but reducing people to being solely one thing (stupid/racist/etc.) is neither either accurate as a singular explanation nor (and more importantly) is it useful in creating better politics. As hitmouse has said where does it leave you strategically? As I have said before I think it's more helpful to say people have racist views, and then of course those views need to be challenged as part of what we need to do, etc. etc. But shouting and using 'they're racists' as an 'explainer' is part of the problem, not part of any solution, unless you count feeling smug and superior yourself as some kind of an answer?

One of the things that much of the left really doesn't get is that politics is about power and control not morals or ethics. Slightly broader than that it for most people is about the material conditions of their daily lives. Most people don't know (or care) about the day-to-day weirdness of party politics and other such political geekery. The right wing gets all these things very well.

Whatever our exact end goal (libertarian communist revolution / social democratic reforms / whatever) I think we're all pretty much in the same place in terms of what we need to do; and that is build class power around a reasonably coherent left wing politics where we live and work. It's not going to be easy at all, but to be honest it's the only workable game in town currently.

Funnily enough, "feeling smug and superior" is what I see in the people denying racism - the ones who, yes, are saying you can't admit when bigots are doing bigotted things. Acting as if talking about bigotry is "hate meeting hate," equally bad.

I give up. I'm not going to reply to anyone any more, so sorry if that seems rude, because I'm just going to put this whole section on ignore.

 

[danny la rouge]

One of the things that much of the left really doesn't get is that politics is about power and control not morals or ethics. Slightly broader than that it for most people is about the material conditions of their daily lives. Most people don't know (or care) about the day-to-day weirdness of party politics and other such political geekery. The right wing gets all these things very well.

Absolutely.

Whatever our exact end goal (libertarian communist revolution / social democratic reforms / whatever) I think we're all pretty much in the same place in terms of what we need to do; and that is build class power around a reasonably coherent left wing politics where we live and work. It's not going to be easy at all, but to be honest it's the only workable game in town currently.

Absolutely.

 

[brogdale]

Everyone looking forward to 14th July 2028?

 

[Cloo]

In many ways I'm less worried about Trump than the Christian Nationalist they will be lining up to be sure to follow him (either in a next election or after he has a heart attack while on the bog in 2026). I'm not certain Trump will enact Project 2025 not so much because he has distanced himself from it, but it's not 'his' idea and I can see him baulking at it just because someone else came up with it But a successor definitely would. I think he probably won't nationally ban abortion because 'It's with the individual states' is his compromise to try to keep both sides happy. But a successor definitely would.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The best we can hope for is chaos.

 

[emanymton]

Nobody has said you can't say that, but reducing people to being solely one thing (stupid/racist/etc.) is neither accurate as a singular explanation nor (and more importantly) is it useful in creating better politics. As hitmouse has said where does it leave you strategically? As I have said before I think it's more helpful to say people have racist views, and then of course those views need to be challenged as part of what we need to do, etc. etc. But shouting and using 'they're racists' as an 'explainer' is part of the problem, not part of any solution, unless you count feeling smug and superior yourself as some kind of an answer?

One of the things that much of the left really doesn't get is that politics is about power and control not morals or ethics. Slightly broader than that it for most people is about the material conditions of their daily lives. Most people don't know (or care) about the day-to-day weirdness of party politics and other such political geekery. The right wing gets all these things very well.

Whatever our exact end goal (libertarian communist revolution / social democratic reforms / whatever) I think we're all pretty much in the same place in terms of what we need to do; and that is build class power around a reasonably coherent left wing politics where we live and work. It's not going to be easy at all, but to be honest it's the only workable game in town currently.

I'll try to reply to specific points later, but in general I don't think it addresses the points being made.

Mainly why are those who didn't vote for Trump being blammed for him winning instead of those who voted for him? Posters on these boards are being told they are the reason Trump won instead of the people who voted for him and that doesn't sit right with me.

 

[emanymton]

The best we can hope for is chaos.

Infighting and power struggles amounts his supports as they are not all that unified is my hope

 

[LDC]

I'll try to reply to specific points later, but in general I don't think it addresses the points being made.

Mainly why are those who didn't vote for Trump being blammed for him winning instead of those who voted for him? Posters on these boards are being told they are the reason Trump won instead of the people who voted for him and that doesn't sit right with me.

I haven't blamed anyone for anything, I think it's a liberal and quite odd way of trying to understand the whole thing. Trump won for a whole host of complicated reasons of which the ways people voted was the end result. Just pointing some people have racist/bigotted views and thinking that explains it all is both shallow and limited, but importantly the next question is yes (in part), but now what do we do?

It might help if you gave some broad idea of what your politics are emanymton?

 

[Pickman's model]

Everyone looking forward to 14th July 2028?

View attachment 450061

I always look forward to bastille day

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There's a bit of talking past each other on this thread, I think. The two ideas aren't mutually exclusive.

The first idea is that the Dems need to think about why they lost, why they did not appeal to certain groups in large enough numbers, why they didn't bring out 'their vote' in sufficient numbers. I think there is plenty to chew on there. For example, should Harris have backtracked from the positions that led to Trump calling her a commie or were those positions exactly the ground she should have been fighting on? Lots of us on here despair at the emptiness of the 'sensible' neoliberals like most Dems and the current UK Labour party. They are very certainly part of the problem.

The second idea focuses on what knowingly voting for a racist, mysoginistic cunt says about you, the individual person with agency. It doesn't say anything good. You're struggling? You think that's a reason to vote for a vicious fucking cunt like Trump? If so, that says something very unpleasant about you. And I do think it is condescending to say that you can't say that about people just because there are lots of them and the first idea above necessitates attracting at least some of them over to your side.

 

[xenon]

I'll try to reply to specific points later, but in general I don't think it addresses the points being made.

Mainly why are those who didn't vote for Trump being blammed for him winning instead of those who voted for him? Posters on these boards are being told they are the reason Trump won instead of the people who voted for him and that doesn't sit right with me.

I don’t think people are blaming Democrat voters Rather blaming the Democrats, for being shit. There’s lots of other words about what shit means.

 

[emanymton]

It might help if you gave some broad idea of what your politics are emanymton?

Depressed mostly these days.

 

[andysays]

I'll try to reply to specific points later, but in general I don't think it addresses the points being made.

Mainly why are those who didn't vote for Trump being blammed for him winning instead of those who voted for him? Posters on these boards are being told they are the reason Trump won instead of the people who voted for him and that doesn't sit right with me.

I don't think blaming (in part) the Democrat party should be equated with blaming those who didn't vote for Trump.

And I really don't think anyone here is actually blaming those who didn't vote for Trump, just as no one here is actually suggesting that posters on these boards are the reason Trump won, or that people who voted for him don't share some of the responsibility for him being elected.

 

[emanymton]

I don’t think people are blaming Democrat voters Rather blaming the Democrats, for being shit. There’s lots of other words about what shit means.

There are literal posts on these boards telling other posters they are part of the problem. No I'm not going to link as I don't think it's helpful

But that is also just a "vibe" I'm getting from the tone of some posts and so apparently are others as I'm not the only one brining it up.

 

[LDC]

Depressed mostly these days.

Not sure that's politics, but anyway for me that explains some of what you've posted about this, what I get from your posts is that you have a pretty pessimistic position with not much hope for things being able to get better.

 

[xenon]

There are literal posts on these boards telling other posters they are part of the problem. No I'm not going to link as I don't think it's helpful

But that is also just a "vibe" I'm getting from the tone of some posts and so apparently are others as I'm not the only one brining it up.

Well writing off Trump voters as thick racist bigots et cetera is a bit problematic as a political strategy sure. And I think that is what’s being criticised. Personally, Let people have their catharsis.

As for where the Democrats went wrong. I don’t think it’s rocket science at all. Many vote for Trump because of the things he said many in spite of. Felt he would improve their lot. If you only have two options and one is seemingly talking about improving your conditions it probably doesn’t matter that much how you feel about them personally. Perfectly rational really.

 

[ignatious]

build class power around a reasonably coherent left wing politics where we live and work

I think you'll lose most people at 'class power' tbh. What does it even mean in 2024 when there are such disparate levels of stakeholdery, and where decades of liberalism have completely ingrained aspiration within the national psyche? The term 'working class' will read as 'unsuccessful' to most people.

 

[ska invita]

A US voter interviewed on the radio just now said he voted for Trump because he had such good relationships with overseas political leaders. I mean like who? (Apart from Putin that is.)

Kim, Xi, Erdogan, Orban, Duterte

Le Pen, Meloni, Wilders, Barnier etc
Polish political class will not be happy, even the swivel eyed

 

[brogdale]

The term 'working class' will read as 'unsuccessful' to most people.

Eh?

 

[xenon]

I think you'll lose most people at 'class power' tbh. What does it even mean in 2024 when there are such disparate levels of stakeholdery, and where decades of liberalism have completely ingrained aspiration within the national psyche? The term 'working class' will read as 'unsuccessful' to most people.

Housing for a start. Doesn’t have to be some Marxist thing. Just identifying common interests, points of struggle. In fact leave Marx and all that out of it, leave it to the beard strokers.

 

[emanymton]

I haven't blamed anyone for anything, I think it's a liberal and quite odd way of trying to understand the whole thing. Trump won for a whole host of complicated reasons of which the ways people voted was the end result. Just pointing some people have racist/bigotted views and thinking that explains it all is both shallow and limited, but importantly the next question is yes (in part), but now what do we do?

It might help if you gave some broad idea of what your politics are emanymton?

So I don't massively disagree with what you are saying, and I think LBJ post above is a very good summary of my feelings as well.

A lot of it is about emphasis, what I'm seeing is a lot of post saying maybe Trump voters are rascist but the REAL reason they vote trump is becuase they feel marginalised and not listened. Now to be clear I think there more than just rascism to blame, it looks like misogyny may have been a significant factor as well, but it general it just comes down to being a shitty human being.

My feelings are as follows:

1 - the real marginalised people don't vote for Trump, they don't vote at all.

2 - while people vote for Trump for a combination of reasons being a shitty human being is as real a reason as feeling marginalised.

3 - While there are material resosn for people being shit they run very deep and cannot be explained by what the Democrats did over the last couple of years.

4 - People say we need to understand, but if you denny or downplay the role played by rascism etc then you are not understanding anything.

5 - Acting like they have a point is more likely to reinforce their existing beliefs than challenge them.

6 - Many of these people have beliefs that are at best fucking nuts and at worst deeply unpleasant and reactionary, and it can be those that they are taking about when they say they are not listened to.

7 - the point I wanted to make but forgot

8 - the other point I was going to make but forgot

9- Any proposed strategy that doesn't take the above into account is probably not going to work. Also a lot of people are talking about this without defining what there strategy is for. A long term goal of worldwide socialist revolution? How to make sure Trump looses in 4 years? How best to reset Trumo over the next 4 years? How to deal with it come the next GE in the UK when Labour are likely to loose? All are valid and can overlap. But without clarity in that just going on about strategy doesn't mean much really.

 

[ignatious]

Eh?

If you are not familiar with the talking down of low earners and the unemployed, the blaming of the poor for their circumstances and the general 'pull yourself up by the bootstraps' mentality that has been doing the rounds for close to 50 years now, you're doing very well to avoid it.

 

[Lord Camomile]

4 - People say we need to understand, but if you denny or downplay the role played by rascism etc then you are not understanding anything.

Why is it downplaying or denying the role played by racism? Surely that's part of the understanding?

None of us are inherently racist or not racist. We get to that point courtesy of a bunch of external conditions (when/where we grow up, who we grew up with, who we meet and what happens along the way, etc).

I'd like there to be fewer people who are racist, or at the very least fewer people who act on those feelings.

I'm going to assume none of us think no-one who voted for Obama is someone we'd consider racist, in some way or another. So, why'd they vote for Obama despite that?

I want to know why people are racist, so I can either reverse that or stop that, but also why people act on that racism, so again, at the very least, we can reduce the impact of it, while we work on the rest.

 

[LDC]

I think you'll lose most people at 'class power' tbh. What does it even mean in 2024 when there are such disparate levels of stakeholdery, and where decades of liberalism have completely ingrained aspiration within the national psyche? The term 'working class' will read as 'unsuccessful' to most people.

I mean if you start with that on the doorsteps and in workplaces then maybe/yes (although my experience is that's usually not true). But I assume here I'm discussing politics with a certain subsection of weirdo political geeks where terms like that aren't a big deal. What it means in 2024 has been discussed on here, plus there's both a huge body of evidence, political analysis, updated thought, etc. on it that helps us.

Yeah, the decades of liberalism/etc. ingrained in people is one of the battles to work through as part of the political project.