Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[Reno]

Here in Germany Homeopathy and other pseudoscience bullshit is mainstream and very popular and i've gotten into arguments with people over it a few times since I've moved here. Our health insurance pays for it, pharmacies have large adverting displays for it in their windows, our politics doesn't take a stance against it and even my vet is always trying to push homeopathic remedies at my cat (sorry, he's a sensible cat and he doesn't believe in it either). I'm convinced if you undermine confidence in actual science and medicine that way, it's no wonder we have a too low vaccination uptake in Germany and more anti-vaxx protests than many other countries.

 

[LDC]

Here in Germany Homeopathy and other pseudoscience bullshit is mainstream and very popular and i've gotten into arguments with people over it a few times since I've moved here. Our health insurance pays for it, pharmacies have large adverting displays for it in their windows, our politics doesn't take a stance against it and even my vet is always trying to push homeopathic remedies at my cat (sorry, he's a sensible cat and he doesn't believe in it either). I'm convinced if you undermine confidence in actual science and medicine that way, it's no wonder we have a too low vaccination uptake in Germany and more anti-vaxx protests than many other countries.

I mentioned ages ago somewhere on here that a friend of mine in Berlin changed his GP as their surgery (or whatever it's called there) website started to have some anti-vax and conspiracy stuff on. Not full-on bonkers stuff, but at the slightly odd/alternative health/naturopathy kinda end of the spectrum.

I do find the national/cultural differences for this stuff really interesting. Do you have opinions as to why this stuff is so prevalent in Germany Reno?

 

[Reno]

I mentioned ages ago somewhere on here that a friend of mine in Berlin changed his GP as their surgery (or whatever it's called there) website started to have some anti-vax and conspiracy stuff on. Not full-on bonkers stuff, but at the slightly odd/alternative health/naturopathy kinda end of the spectrum.

I do find the national/cultural differences for this stuff really interesting. Do you have opinions as to why this stuff is so prevalent in Germany Reno?

It has a long history here, starting with the esoteric and occultism movement in the late 19th century, which was also popular under Hitler. Then it got taken up by the left and alternative movements and now those people happily march together with neo-Nazis down the streets against vaccinations and Covid measurements.

Esotericism in Germany and Austria - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[LDC]

It has a long history here, starting with the esoteric and occultism movement in the late 19th century, which was also popular under Hitler. Then it got taken up by the left and alternative movements and now those people happily march together with neo-Nazis down the streets against vaccinations and Covid measurements.

Esotericism in Germany and Austria - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yeah, I was trying to resist mentioning the Nazis! And I'm making a guess that lots of the anti-vax type stuff in France and Spain (for example, as well as some other European countries) has a slightly different root and trajectory?

In France they've had some relatively recent scandals with pharmaceutical companies, and the mistrust of the State is more widespread maybe...? Here in the UK its roots are twofold; marginalised communities who have a mistrust of the State, and also then more middle class 'natural health' crowd, and then the conspiracy stuff has a toe in each?

Posted this elsewhere, but in case you missed it, a report on a demo in Hamburg: Report from a ‘No Green Pass’ protest in Hamburg - Angry Workers

 

[klang]

I know a lot of people in Bavaria who never vaxxed their children for / against anything at all, even long before covid. Essentially they can only do it because the majority of kids around them are vaxxed. And because they have enough money to buy and live an alternative lifestyle.

There are so many naturopaths in Bavaria, and so many people paying good money to be 'treated' by them. I read somewhere recently that Bavaria has the most naturopaths per capita in Germany.
Some areas of Bavaria, mainly the wealthy ones in and around Chiemgau also have some of the highest covid incidence.

 

[BigMoaner]

Even Holland and barret I sometimes walk around and snap out of it and think “is this all actually a load of bollocks?”

 

[LDC]

Even Holland and barret I sometimes walk around and snap out of it and think “is this all actually a load of bollocks?”

Yes, it clearly is!

 

[gentlegreen]

Even Holland and barret I sometimes walk around and snap out of it and think “is this all actually a load of bollocks?”

I'm so glad I can buy all the specialist vegan food I want locally these days - literally half of H&B is bullshit supplements for people who either don't need any or would be better off just eating some veggies ...- plus in latter years those silly tubs of "protein".
The was one particular woo woo shop in the posh part of town that made me wish I was in disguise - the last time I went in I almost bit right through my lip because of the shit advice they were giving out.
For my sins I used to buy toothpaste that had "homeopathic" on the label - only because I liked the apricot flavour ...

 

[stdP]

Is that reading dents instead of bumps?

As I remember it, retrophrenology is improving people's personality by giving the head a more correct shape. For instance, if you wanted to boost your client's intelligence, just give the correct part of their head a good ol' whack with a hammer to form a nice big bump.

Here in Germany Homeopathy and other pseudoscience bullshit is mainstream and very popular and i've gotten into arguments with people over it a few times since I've moved here.

Is there any history to the homeopathy aspect in particular...? It certainly flies in the face of the classic "pragmatic german" stereotype I was brought up with (and is largely true of all the germans I've known personally) - I'm still reading up on it but presumably this sort of woo-woo guff has often been present there and homepathy is just the latest incarnation of it...? From reading around a bit (e.g. this article from 2010) there's been a fairly hefty scientific/medical backlash against it for a while now, but little support form politicians, so presumably it's got a large degree of public support...?

I've always found homeopathy one of the strangest forms of bollocks for people to latch on to because I can't even see how it could be pleasingly comforting. Vaguely swerving back in the direction of the thread, aeons ago I once got annoyed enough with a homeopath that I poured my drink in their lap (other drinks may also have been imbibed prior to this) - they insisted that all vaccines were homeopathic "diluted viruses" or "virus memories" and said that diluting HIV-positive blood would be a cure for AIDS

 

[WouldBe]

Yes, it clearly is!

Apart from the yummy dried pineapple and papaya I get to put on my oatibix.

 

[LDC]

Apart from the yummy dried pineapple and papaya I get to put on my oatibix.

Papaya is quackery!

True story: my brother got kidney failure in his late 30s (undiagnosed high blood pressure for years) and the week I found out he was very sick and needed a transplant someone who was visiting the house I was sharing with a few people, heard this and told me, "Oh that's a shame, if he'd just eaten more papaya and mango and some supplements for a while he'll have been fine." I just about managed to resist thumping him the idiot hippie.

All fruit is potentially quack medicine!

 

[gentlegreen]

Papaya is quackery!

True story: my brother got kidney failure in his late 30s (undiagnosed high blood pressure for years) and the week I found out he was very sick and needed a transplant someone who was visiting the house I was sharing with a few people, heard this and told me, "Oh that's a shame, if he'd just eaten more papaya and mango and some supplements for a while he'll have been fine." I just about managed to resist thumping him the idiot hippie.

All fruit is potentially quack medicine!

I've been overdoing the fruit this year - what I ought to do is peel the apples and eat the peel .. I suppose even the sugary part is preferable to actual confectionery ...

Grapefruit is actually dangerous if you're on certain meds and papaya, pineapple and several other fruits are perhaps a bit iffy based on what they do to meat ...

 

[Reno]

As I remember it, retrophrenology is improving people's personality by giving the head a more correct shape. For instance, if you wanted to boost your client's intelligence, just give the correct part of their head a good ol' whack with a hammer to form a nice big bump.



Is there any history to the homeopathy aspect in particular...? It certainly flies in the face of the classic "pragmatic german" stereotype was brought up with (and is largely true of all the germans I've known personally) - I'm still reading up on it but presumably this sort of woo-woo guff has often been present there and homepathy is just the latest incarnation of it...? From reading around a bit (e.g. this article from 2010) there's been a fairly hefty scientific/medical backlash against it for a while now, but little support form politicians, so presumably it's got a large degree of public support...?

I've always found homeopathy one of the strangest forms of bollocks for people to latch on to because I can't even see how it could be pleasingly comforting. Vaguely swerving back in the direction of the thread, aeons ago I once got annoyed enough with a homeopath that I poured my drink in their lap (other drinks may also have been imbibed prior to this) - they insisted that all vaccines were homeopathic "diluted viruses" or "virus memories" and said that diluting HIV-positive blood would be a cure for AIDS

Homeopathy was invented in the 18th century by a German physician.

There are positive stereotypes about Germans which to my dissappointment I found are not true anymore when I moved back here after 33 years. Pragmatism and efficiency are two of them.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Grapefruit is actually dangerous if you're on certain meds and papaya, pineapple and several other fruits are perhaps a bit iffy based on what they do to meat ...

Eh? No. Ham & pineapple pizza is ace.

 

[Sue]

As I remember it, retrophrenology is improving people's personality by giving the head a more correct shape. For instance, if you wanted to boost your client's intelligence, just give the correct part of their head a good ol' whack with a hammer to form a nice big bump.

 

[Sue]

There are positive stereotypes about Germans which to my dissappointment I found are not true anymore when I moved back here after 33 years. Pragmatism and efficiency are two of them.

I'm working for a German company at the moment so have a lot of calls with German colleagues. I've had to change my approach somewhat as my sense of humour is really not translating well. (I'll say something mildly piss taking or sarcastic and it's taken completely literally. )

There's also a big office in Spain and its interesting to see the Spanish-German interactions too.

 

[Reno]

I'm working for a German company at the moment so have a lot of calls with German colleagues. I've had to change my approach somewhat as my sense of humour is really not translating well. (I'll say something mildly piss taking or sarcastic and it's taken completely literally. )

There's also a big office in Spain and its interesting to see the Spanish-German interactions too.

Germans actually do have a sense of humour, so that stereotype isn't true. What is true, is that sarcasm or piss taking isn't big here. That's a cultural thing, the British are indirect in conversation and often say the opposite of what they mean, while Germans say exactly what they mean, occasionally to a fault. If a British person likes you, they may call you a "silly cunt" because they feel they are familiar enough to take that liberty, if they don't like something, they will say something like "that's interesting". Germans would never do that, they will call you something nice if you are a friend (mein Lieber/my) or they may bluntly tell you what they don't like, whether you want to hear it or not.

 

[WouldBe]

It's alright any increase in intelligence will wear off in a week or two when the swelling goes down.

 

[two sheds]

you can all laugh a good knock on the head would do some people a lot of good

 

[LDC]

If a British person likes you, they may call you a "silly cunt" because they feel they are familiar enough to take that liberty, if they don't like something, they will say something like "that's interesting".

That's one of my favourite things about being from here!

That and, "It's/I'm fine." being a suitable response to pretty much anything from the best sex/meal/present ever to being shot or something.

 

[WouldBe]

you can all laugh a good knock on the head would do some people a lot of good

Might be something to it. They always say some people could do with some sense knocking into them.

 

[Sue]

That's one of my favourite things about being from here!

That and, "It's/I'm fine." being a suitable response to pretty much anything from the best sex/meal/present ever to being shot or something.

Erm...

 

[LDC]

Erm...

"How are you?" or "How was that?"

"I'm fine." or "Yeah, it was fine."

Add a thanks if you're feeling emotional and gushy.

Nothing wrong with that! Answers the question.

 

[Reno]

That's one of my favourite things about being from here!

That and, "It's/I'm fine." being a suitable response to pretty much anything from the best sex/meal/present ever to being shot or something.

I know both countries well and both have their good and bad sides. While I lived in the UK for 33 years and learned how to communicate and socialise there, inside I always stayed German. Being back, I prefer to know where I'm at with someone and that I don't have to decode everything, a lot of nastiness can hide behind "banter". There are things I miss about the British (a reason why I still hang around here), but being back in Germany, I have more in common with how Germans interact. In London I found it's easier to get to know people at first, but they never quite let me in and even close friendships felt more casual. Here it's the other way round, Germans are more aloof at first but when trust has been established, friendships here are more close then the ones I had in London.

Sorry, that strayed an awful long way from Covid conspiracies.

 

[LDC]

Yeah, I'm drunkenly slightly taking the piss with my previous posts. What you say totally chimes with my experience and people that I know that have lived in both countries.

 

[nogojones]

Eh? No. Ham & pineapple pizza is ace.

In homeopathic doses maybe.

 

[two sheds]

Germans similar to Dutch in some ways with the honesty, they're very direct.And I think used to be similar in the way they used to use the polite 'U' form for years with someone until they'd hold a party to celebrate calling each other the familiar 'je'. Did the Germans have carpets on their dining tables (while not eating on it obv)? Dutch used to, not sure whether they still do.

More towards the British sense of humour though with a fair amount of word play.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Is that reading dents instead of bumps?

Never read Pratchett - was that an idea that hitting someone on the head hard would change their personality? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

If reading heads tells you about what personality someone has then inflicting the dents in a carefully controlled manner can adjust it as needed.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

That's one of my favourite things about being from here!

That and, "It's/I'm fine." being a suitable response to pretty much anything from the best sex/meal/present ever to being shot or something.

could be worse

 

[DaveCinzano]

could be worse

Mustn't grumble