Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Determinism, Randomness, and Free Will

I've given you an example of how I think it is ill-defined. You've chosen not to engage with it, and instead to assume I haven't read the things you've read, meaning that I'm just ignorant.

But to name-drop two philosophers who I have read, I think both Kant and Schopenhauer, while they say lots of good things, miss an important point about conscious experience. Effectively the world isn't really 'will and representation'. Inasmuch as conscious experience is 'the world', it is only representation. Conscious experience is entirely self-generated - to use Kant's phrasing, the phenomena of experience can never give direct access to the noumena. But something they don't quite grasp is that the thing doing the experiencing, as it appears in consciousness, is also a construct of consciousness - the whole shebang of 'me in the world' is a construct of consciousness - both the world and, importantly, the me.
 
Really not sure what that's got to do with your claim about free will being 'ill-defined'. Have you read every single definition of free will to know that, universally, free will has not (and cannot?) ever be well-defined?

This is a really strange line btw. Most free will skeptics don't think this. The reason why most people are free will skeptics is because they understand what it means - or accept some working definition of it - but don't think we have it.
 
Really not sure what that's got to do with your claim about free will being 'ill-defined'. Have you read every single definition of free will to know that, universally, free will has not (and cannot?) ever be well-defined?

This is a really strange line btw. Most free will skeptics don't think this. The reason why most people are free will skeptics is because they understand what it means - or accept some working definition of it - but don't think we have it.
don't suppose he's read all of kant or schopenhauer either.
 
Really not sure what that's got to do with your claim about free will being 'ill-defined'. Have you read every single definition of free will to know that, universally, free will has not (and cannot?) ever be well-defined?

This is a really strange line btw. Most free will skeptics don't think this. The reason why most people are free will skeptics is because they understand what it means - or accept some working definition of it - but don't think we have it.
Ok. My position is different. I think it's ill-defined, and what I posted above is part of the explanation as to how that has come about. It's far from unique as an ill-defined concept when it comes to the workings of conscious experience.

How's about you engage rather than just going on about how strange and ill-informed I am? Why do you think I'm talking about the nature of conscious experience here? Why might it be important?
 
I don't think this is a question strictly (or at all) for the humanities tbh.

That said, it's one of those questions in philosophy where you get stuck on the question - Wittgenstein's point that sometimes there is no answer because the question is wrongly formulated and thus meaningless.

I still think questions to do with free will are ill-defined. We have certainly evolved to have such a notion within our consciousness - observing 'decisions' we've made, coming up with reasons why we made those decisions, and imagining what might have happened with a different decision. That might be all we need to then feel that we have something we call 'free will'. But when we dig down into it, the thing we think we have disappears from view.

I think a lot of the concepts we use to make sense of our conscious perception are ill-defined. Understanding is another one. What exactly does it mean to understand something? And yet we feel we have a good understanding of the term understanding! Such infinite recursions are something of a feature.

Personally my bias leans towards the notion that questions of free will are often ill-defined. What I object to is the idea that times of crisis are a sufficient reason for abandoning the examination of such questions entirely.

I don't believe I've ever said that such questions are strictly for the humanities. Obviously STEM fields like neuroscience and biochemistry have valuable contributions to make, but those kind of fields tend to be in less danger of getting their funding cut.
 
Ok. My position is different. I think it's ill-defined, and what I posted above is part of the explanation as to how that has come about. It's far from unique as an ill-defined concept when it comes to the workings of conscious experience.

How's about you engage rather than just going on about how strange and ill-informed I am? Why do you think I'm talking about the nature of conscious experience here? Why might it be important?

I don't know why you're talking about it, might I suggest being less cryptic and more direct in the points you're trying to make?

I'm not inclined to take your points seriously when you make lazy generalisations about free will being 'ill-defined'. This strikes as something only somebody who either doesn't know what language is or hasn't read any of the relevant literature could say.
 
I don't know why you're talking about it, might I suggest being less cryptic and more direct in the points you're trying to make?

I'm not inclined to take your points seriously when you make lazy generalisations about free will being 'ill-defined'. This strikes as something only somebody who either doesn't know what language is or hasn't read any of the relevant literature could say.
it's that one
 
If you want one/some of psychology’s many perspectives on consciousness, this is the meat of the one I currently find most convincing. I can’t be arsed to express it in my own words, I’m afraid, but hopefully if I take some photos of a text book, they are legible for those interested. It’s chapter 1.4 I’m focusing on:

65BF5B04-78E0-46EA-B372-FDAA59972440.jpeg

FA884A1F-9EE2-45D5-94EE-1248BF2F12E2.jpeg
(This is talking about conceptualisation, but I am also making the leap that to have consciousness, you first have to conceptualise)
 
If you want one/some of psychology’s many perspectives on consciousness, this is the meat of the one I currently find most convincing. I can’t be arsed to express it in my own words, I’m afraid, but hopefully if I take some photos of a text book, they are legible for those interested. It’s chapter 1.4 I’m focusing on:

View attachment 330509

View attachment 330510
(This is talking about conceptualisation, but I am also making the leap that to have consciousness, you first have to conceptualise)

That's very technical language that's quite hard to follow. Not a criticism, but it is proving a barrier to my understanding. What I'm curious to know is how the models described are constructed; section 1.4 seems to be talking about things going on in the subject's head (brain?), but then section 1.4.1 talks about "interesting results" from artificial intelligence robotics. That doesn't seem really relevant to how humans operate, and I generally consider myself to be an optimist about the prospects of reproducing consciousness in silico.
 
That's very technical language that's quite hard to follow. Not a criticism, but it is proving a barrier to my understanding. What I'm curious to know is how the models described are constructed; section 1.4 seems to be talking about things going on in the subject's head (brain?), but then section 1.4.1 talks about "interesting results" from artificial intelligence robotics. That doesn't seem really relevant to how humans operate, and I generally consider myself to be an optimist about the prospects of reproducing consciousness in silico.
I’m genuinely sorry about the technical language. This whole area is a fucking headfuck of complexity, frankly, which is why I didn’t want to try to explain it in my own words. (I’ve read a tonne of recent papers about this stuff, and it was only after getting through loads of them that I actually started to get what they were saying because they all assumed you knew everything else already. I wish I’d had this textbook first.).

The general theory is this, although there are lots of variations of it:

The field of psycholinguistics tries to make sense of how humans process language — what it is, what happens in the brain and so on. From pretty early on in the field, it was obvious that language is crucial to how humans understand the world — fundamental to consciousness — and it also became obvious that human language is (possibly uniquely) abstracted from the immediately concrete. So the idea of “concepts” came into focus as the way that this abstraction happens. People asked what is a concept? How do humans use them? And so on. At first, it was suggested that concepts are lists of features that members of the conceptual category will contain. But in the early 1970s, a pioneer in the field called Elenor Rosch noted that people will judge some members of a category as more “typical” as other members, like an apple is more typical of “fruit” than an olive. So that meant conceptual categories can’t just be a matter of include/exclude. At that point, people started to dream up more complex systems to do with things like “prototypes” that are typical of a concept. But these raised the question of how the brain actually copes with typicality and other issues raised by these fuzzy ideas, and how can you actually process the words that are feeding these concepts?

Now, your brain has lots of modular systems through which it interprets the sensory inputs from the world. There is a system that deals with vision, one that deals with moving your hand, one that deals with judging distance and all these other things. These systems operate in both directions too, so as well as making sense of what comes in, they also simulate future actions so that you can do things like throw a ball or walk or listen for a cuckoo. So far, so simple — all animals have these systems, more or less — it makes sense that they would evolve because they allow animals to better find food and mates and avoid predators. We now think that when you process words — when you “think”, really — these simulation systems become recruited to more rapidly process the action ideas. We can see this through weird effects, like the differential speeds at which you will react to a statement, and things like fMRI scanning. And what you see is that the processing is contextual and related to the meaning itself — if you say “NoXion kicks a ball” then the same motor circuits that operate when you kick will light up, but if you say, “NoXion wants to kick a ball” then they will not.

There are live arguments about whether these modular systems process words by themselves or whether there is an additional non-modular master controller, but that’s not important really to this discussion. The point is that what you think is “thinking” noticeably involves the evolved parts of the brain simulating real-world actions and coordinating this with chemical and electrical signalling, which in turn create the bodily co-ordination chemicals that we then construct as “emotions”. The simulations are based on your real-world experiences of being an embodied human in particular situations.

So what the hell does all this mean? Well, one implication is that there is no single seat of “consciousness” — no little homunculus that decides on what you think and feel. It’s a mess of embodied, concrete simulations that evolved to survive in different environments that are combined with after-the-event meaning-making, which is itself based on the same system of simulated, embodied reactions. Is that free will? I don’t see how it can be, in the sense that purists would have it. But at the same time, the simulation is unique to you and the recursive nature of the way it is reinterpreted at least produces the illusion of thought, which the system uses to make unique and individual decisions.

(Regarding the stuff from 1.4.1 onwards — I was going to say something in response but then I realised that I don’t know enough about what it is referring to with respect to the experiments in computer linguistics. The subsequent pages seem to suggest that they’ve done experiments with programmes that can learn language that find that putting these programmes together result in the system generating a new language. But I don’t know what to make of that, really, or what the actual parameters of those experiments were.)
 
Last edited:
I don't know why you're talking about it, might I suggest being less cryptic and more direct in the points you're trying to make?

I'm not inclined to take your points seriously when you make lazy generalisations about free will being 'ill-defined'. This strikes as something only somebody who either doesn't know what language is or hasn't read any of the relevant literature could say.
How about you stop assuming I'm making lazy generalisations?

I say that the concept is ill-defined. More than that, I don't see what free will could be. I can see how the idea has come about and in that I'm not being cryptic. I stated explicitly the evolutionary steps required.

I also stated explicitly the correction required to Schopenhauer. The world is not will and representation. In that language (which I wouldn't necessarily choose), it's just representation.
 
Last edited:
If you want one/some of psychology’s many perspectives on consciousness, this is the meat of the one I currently find most convincing. I can’t be arsed to express it in my own words, I’m afraid, but hopefully if I take some photos of a text book, they are legible for those interested. It’s chapter 1.4 I’m focusing on:

View attachment 330509


(This is talking about conceptualisation, but I am also making the leap that to have consciousness, you first have to conceptualise)
didnt read the screen grabs, but on your last comment i would say conceptions appear in conciousness.

whereever there is a concept, there is the awareness of it. "tree" "poverty" - as concepts, but always those concepts appearing in awareness. what are we - well if we are anything, we are awareness. even our own bodies appear in it. if i hold up "my" hand, it appears in it. "the representations" as i think schopenheur would put it. awareness is that in which all the representations (note representations - not "thigns/objects/matter") appear.

am i this body? no - perhaps i am the awareness in which the body appears. but i wouldn't even say i am awareness. what am i then. no idea.

i only know i have brain because i have seen pictures of brains, been taught that i have one, that they do this and do that. so even my brain is pure representation appearing in awareness. it as much as a representation as a car, or anythign else. it is drummed into us that that which appears is pure matter, things coming together to form other things - when really, reductively, it is mere sense data turned into representations in brain chemistry. we have no idea whether what is "out there" is out there at all because there's ALWAYS that gap.

conciosuness prior to concepts, everytime.

do brains create conciousness, or does conciousness create brains? the more i've thought about this stuff, the more i think it's the latter. "whatever the fuck it is" has grown us, perhaps to look at itself.

i'd have more interest in the concept of free will if it was built on solid ontological foundations such as there being "subjects acting..." in the first place. the idea that we are billions of individuals deciding with no prior is ridiculous. we do not and cannot know where our decisions come from. they come to me as birds suddenly come into sight. and even if i am debating in my mind a decision, which really gives the sense of a will and willer, then the two opposing parts of my mind are happening by themselves. they are literally fighting it out automatically.

maybe it's more accurate to say that there is free will, but no one prior to it. and if there is somethign prior to teh decision that appears, what's prior to that? elephants all the way down.
 
Last edited:
meditation is great for the phenomenlogical exploration of these matters. experiential experience of the mind. not as some self help tool or personal development thing, but as a way to see what is goign on. focus on a spot in teh room and every time the mind wanders, draw it back to that spot, over and over, for ten minutes. do it for a week and loads of stuff gets revealled, but not really in a knowledge type way, but in an experiential kind of way, you will see the patterns of the mind repeat itself over and over and then questions such as free will, determinism, ethics, etc are bought into more interesting focus. definitely recommend meditation as a useful tool to any philosophers otu there.
 
We are awareness, yes. But I think it's more accurate to say, strictly speaking, that our awareness exists. The 'I' within that awareness is a construct as well, just like all the rest of it.

Looked at from the outside, as it were, it's easy to see how this awareness has evolved. Taking the external reality as read, it makes perfect sense for our minds to have evolved in just the way they have, producing the representations that they produce, to allow us to live and to reproduce - including the construct of the doer doing and deciding and acting with freedom. But that of course requires the assumption of the thing that really exists – the noumenal, in Kant's language – the very thing that we cannot have direct access to. That's something of a logical conundrum, but we live with all kinds of conundrums. Understanding (whatever that is!) is incomplete.
 
We are awareness, yes. But I think it's more accurate to say, strictly speaking, that our awareness exists. The 'I' within that awareness is a construct as well, just like all the rest of it.

Looked at from the outside, as it were, it's easy to see how this awareness has evolved. Taking the external reality as read, it makes perfect sense for our minds to have evolved in just the way they have, producing the representations that they produce, to allow us to live and to reproduce - including the construct of the doer doing and deciding and acting with freedom. But that of course requires the assumption of the thing that really exists – the noumenal, in Kant's language – the very thing that we cannot have direct access to. That's something of a logical conundrum, but we live with all kinds of conundrums. Understanding (whatever that is!) is incomplete.
yes, agree.

why have we got eyes people might ask, or ears, or whatever. the "what ever it is" or the noumenal grew them. conciousness being concious of itself. the ground of being deciding (?) to have a good look at itself so you end up with the noumenal looking at itself when we look at anything such as this laptop etc. conciousness or "on-ness" or "being" inseperable from all of which happens.
 
It's something pretty miraculous, I think, for us to have realised much of this stuff. I'm impressed by the Buddha for much of what he realised, basically just by sitting under a tree for a very long time. I'm impressed by science for the ways in which it has shed light on the mechanisms by which we produce our experience - whodathunk that different colours represented just a very slight difference in the wavelength of a very short section of the spectrum of electromagnetic waves?

And where does that kind of knowledge sit in the phenomenal/noumenal range? I don't think the answer is obvious. We're seeing behind the veil in important ways when we make predictions that come true.
 
i think idealism will start to take hold in a much more serious way. people think "objects" kinda fall into the eye, that what is seen is actual a real representation. it really is just a chemical experience within the brain. the Logic Bros and hyper rationalists think they are observing the physical universe when truly all they are observing is their own neurology, inescapable. not to say that what is being observed is not out there, or some bizarre solopsisim, and not worthy of careful scientific study, but it might losen us up a little and open more doors of relating to the world if it is in more common parlance that teh world is filtered and processed through our own neural chemistry. people might be less stressed if they realise that there whole self concept is just a pattern of thought that can be disolved quite easily. this is what i think a lot of buddhists philosophers meant by being "released from karma" - the realisation that there is nothign there to be released anyway.
 
Last edited:
I get how people are scared of the idea that their own self is just a pattern of thought that can be dissolved quite easily. It's exactly what I think, btw, (more than that, I know it to be the case inasmuch as I can know anything) but that doesn't really make me less apprehensive. Accounts by people experiencing psychotic episodes in which their self dissolves are generally quite terrifying. The disordered mind loses its illusion of control. But it's more than just an illusion, or at least illusion isn't quite the right word. It's an effective way of being.
 
wholeheartedly recommend this dude. read nearly all his stuff and can't wait for the next one.

 
I get how people are scared of the idea that their own self is just a pattern of thought that can be dissolved quite easily. It's exactly what I think, btw, (more than that, I know it to be the case) but that doesn't really make me less apprehensive. Accounts by people experiencing psychotic episodes in which their self dissolves are generally quite terrifying. The disordered mind loses its illusion of control.
i know what you're saying, but the self cannot be got rid off in my experience even with "no self" knowledge. but can it be "seen through" or for what it truly is, yes. who would want to get rid of it anyway? it's cool to have a self. it feels nice to succeed, do well, do kind shit, etc. but at least with this knowledge it can be let go as a fundemental, absoloute. with a little observation it can be seen for what it is, part of the wonderful rolling tappestry, but not really a "thing".

if we are "everything" just expressing itself, then any self concept is part of that "everything" anyway. no need to "get rid of it". it's hard to get rid of somethign that isn't there to be got rid of in the first place :) when people want to "fix themselves" they think there is an object there to be fixed, when really they are just sick of the rolling tide of self concepts which ironically are fuelled by the idea of "thing" being there beneath it at all. see through the idea of the "thing" and the self concepts become a bit of nonesense. thats easier said than done, good days and bad days,lol etc.

the "I" is just an implication of thoguht. it's implied everything time we think. but it is not a thing, in my view.
 
I get how people are scared of the idea that their own self is just a pattern of thought that can be dissolved quite easily.

That's the problem I have with Buddhism, which for some reason seems to get an easier ride in the West, probably because it doesn't carry the same institutional baggage over here. Just because something is temporary, like the self, or desire or whatever, doesn't make it any less real.
 
That's the problem I have with Buddhism, which for some reason seems to get an easier ride in the West, probably because it doesn't carry the same institutional baggage over here. Just because something is temporary, like the self, or desire or whatever, doesn't make it any less real.
despite my tag line, i don't have a great time for buddhism. solitary meditation and general reading is enough to get the jist. people go in hard and become buddhist subjects - unable to think outside of it's frame of reference. even buddha said give up the practices when the time is right. i think and hope i have done that. i still meditate every day but only for ten minutes instead of bloody hours. it's a great tradition which does turn so many assumptions on their head. can see it affecting western thought mroe and more in the future which is a good thign.
 
a lot of it emphasises transcendance over imminance and is just out right garbage that sucks people in with horrible false promises. i've seen it happen to people, slowly cut themselves off from life for decades in teh hope of some magical enlightenement.
 
Jesus Christ will pick up the poor, save the lost, love those the world hates, heal the sick, wash dirty feet, raise the dead.

It worked for me.
 
That's the problem I have with Buddhism, which for some reason seems to get an easier ride in the West, probably because it doesn't carry the same institutional baggage over here. Just because something is temporary, like the self, or desire or whatever, doesn't make it any less real.
I tend to agree. I'm certainly not a Buddhist, but a lot of Western thought owes a great deal to Buddihism. To the extent to which I understand what he's on about, Heidegger certainly does.

As an organised religion, Buddhism stinks. It is no better than Christianity, teaching acceptance of injustice in this world in anticipation of some form of greater reward. It serves power.

My own take on this is that science (loosely the scientific method, acknowledging that this isn't just one thing) has produced the best ways to look at all these questions. But it produces those ways of looking at things by existing in a perpetually provisional state - constantly open to being wrong.
 
Accounts by people experiencing psychotic episodes in which their self dissolves are generally quite terrifying.
To quote Riktam T Tavi, "it's all fun and games until someone loses an 'I'"

I expect these episodes are terrifying, but not everyone whose self falls away goes crazy. Some barely notice and carry on much as before, and what is seen from this perspective is that the self is unnecessary for functioning. At this point, the question of free will becomes moot- whose will exactly?
 
Back
Top Bottom